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Every company I know of that did a poison pill to prevent a takeover wound up tanking within a year or two and the shareholders wound up with sand.

As a Twitter shareholder myself, the board is making a big mistake.

As a legal matter, I don't understand how a board could sell shares to other shareholders at a lower price than to the entity wanting to buy shares to gain control.



I think the most famous counter-example would be Netflix in 2012

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20214401



Icahn was claiming that Netflix was undervalued. To be fair, he was also angling for an acquisition. But a bid like that usually has a half-life; the market trends to a good price — and indeed, Netflix doubled in value by mid-2013.

Elon is arguing that Twitter is mismanaged. He already probably pushed them on the edit button, even though they claimed he didn't. If he's right — and Goldman Sachs seems to agree — he could have an easier go of it next year.


> Elon is arguing that Twitter is mismanaged.

Anyone who thinks this is manifestly true should read this take from an ex-CEO of Reddit:

https://twitter.com/yishan/status/1514938507407421440

tl;dr: managing human interaction in any environment with limited accountability is a lot harder than it looks

Also, there's the question of by what metrics one would argue it's mismanaged. Revenue and engagement trends? Profitability trends?


I read it and am thoroughly unimpressed.

> It is because at Certain Times, given Certain Circumstances, humans will Behave Badly when confronted with Certain Ideas, and if you are The Main Platform Where That Idea is Being Discussed, you cannot do NOTHING, because otherwise humans will continue behaving badly.

To paraphrase: "Ideas are dangerous, people cannot be trusted to argue on the internet because it leads to violence, therefore people have to be censored, even if the things they're saying are true".

First, the idea that lab-leak theory was related to violence against East Asians is highly, highly dubious. Second, again and again, I see people arguing that we have to dispense with our ideals because they are Too Dangerous. At some point you have to realize that these people are just cowards.


> I see people arguing that we have to dispense with our ideals because they are Too Dangerous. At some point you have to realize that these people are just cowards.

We don’t have to dispense with the ideal. But that’s what it is, an ideal. We have to remain pragmatic.


No, we do not have to remain pragmatic. Pragmatism is the cowards way out of doing something hard or right.


It is both funny and sad that this country made it through a revolution, a civil war, various recessions, two world wars, the looming threat of nuclear holocaust, decades of ill-advised military adventurism but apparently it's "people arguing on the internet" that causes us to stop believing in free speech. Like I said, cowards.


It’s because during those times the crazies could only go shout at a street corner, so most people didn’t have a huge platform.


Bullshit. We did just fine, and the populace did just fine ignoring the quacks, just like we'll ignore all the quacks without tech companies censoring everyone. Lord above, we might come to terms with the fact we're all nuts, which would be a far more productive and unifying form of civil discourse.


it's not that we stopped believing in free speech, it's just that, like many other words and terms, "free speech" has been "Newspeaked", redefined before our very eyes, in our very lifetimes, and all they had to do to accomplish it was put the Internet in everyone's pocket and convince them it will brainwash them into being evil mindless automatons or something, unless The Right People oversee and moderate what can and cannot be discussed online. literally nobody thought this way 15 years ago.


> To paraphrase: "Ideas are dangerous"

More precisely: ideas are powerful, which means they can be dangerous.

Anyone who doesn't understand that is actually a deeper enemy of discourse than a platform owner who says their forum is not a venue for topic X or opinion Y.

Some stop here at a dichotomy: "you want to ban ideas, I will be oppressed!" or "I must literally be allowed to put my words in your speech vehicle and be given full access to its audience without any abrogation of that privilege or I am being oppressed!"

Others start to understand what the legal system has with both weapons and speech: perhaps there are some activities or forms it takes that need nuanced consideration. Time, place, manner, associated behavior, fire in a crowded theater, threats, etc. You will find these considerations where people actually take speech seriously.

> Ideas are dangerous, people cannot be trusted to argue on the internet because it leads to violence

You seem to be merely summarizing with scorn here rather than actually addressing the situations where this happens.

It's not hard to find stories where distorted worldviews oriented around agentive threats regarding the pandemic have led to people threatening and even assaulting health professionals. I know some of these people.

You probably know families or acquaintances that have banned certain topics from dinner gatherings because they lead to heated conversations or even violence. It's not that they believe no one should ever talk about them. It's that they understand what Wong is talking about here: there's problem behavior and carving out a domain where the related topic isn't carried is one way of fixing it.

And when it's your house that people are yelling or coming to blows at, I'll bet you try the same solution.

Arguing on "the internet" is a freedom that has never been threatened by limitation that Twitter and Reddit have put in place. What's at stake with Twitter and Reddit is what Wong describes well here: they're stewards of the platform where this is taking place, they get to see the effects. They feel an obligation to do something about it.

And you know what? Their right to do so as stewards of the platform is also a freedom of speech right. And it's every bit as important as an individual's right to spout off about whatever it is they want.

The freedoms to watch more strictly are those where the state or other entities impose violence or loss of physical freedom as a consequence for touching a topic. Twitter and Reddit battles are about people's sense of privilege.


You sir, are ascribing nuance where there is none.

Moderation's place is at the end agent. Period. I.e. it is the responsibility of people and end users to be aware of the actual physical world we share with others. To distort it is to do injustice to everyone.

I assure you. The poisoning of reality for "people's own good" leads to slippery slopes, and complete dysfunction and fraying around the edges which will always start targeted against undesirables, then be weaponized against everyone else by whomever happens to be in a position of power.

Either accept the world unfiltered, or don't try. Half efforts are doomed to abuse.


In your long, meandering post that reminds me of the long, meandering thread you linked, you claim that anyone who supports free speech is "actually a deeper enemy of discourse" than a censor. That's creepy Orwellian nonsense and anyone "smart" enough to convince themselves that up is down should not be making decisions.

This actually isn't hard. Ban racial slurs, "doxxing," calls to genocide, and low effort provocations. Don't ban ideas because you're convinced they are wrong or dangerous.


> you claim that anyone who supports free speech is "actually a deeper enemy of discourse" than a censor

Not what I said. If you care about speech, try to be careful about parsing, interpreting, and summarizing it. If something still doesn't make sense, try asking questions.


It's exactly what you said. I took your dissembling and accurately reproduced its message in one sentence.

> More precisely: ideas are powerful, which means they can be dangerous.

> Anyone who doesn't understand that is actually a deeper enemy of discourse than a platform owner who says their forum is not a venue for topic X or opinion Y.

In order to have REAL FREE SPEECH (which you call DISCOURSE) we have to CENSOR BAD OPINIONS.

No. Stop playing whack-a-mole with "bad ideas". "X idea leads to Y bad thing" is almost always wrong, the world is chaotic, no one knows the result of a tweet, and people who claim to are just looking for excuse to shut down debates they're afraid to have.


I'd just stick with banning what's already illegal - libel, inciting violence, fraud, threats, harassment, criminal activity, etc.


> Ban racial slurs, "doxxing," calls to genocide, and low effort provocations.

Hey everyone, look here! We have the answer to the thorny issue of what governs free speech in clear black and white. Twitter, facebook, reddit execs, take note!


I could easily do this job. It's not hard, it merely requires not being a coward.

But my rate is quite high.


"Low effort provocations" is disinformation, is trolling, is spreading knowable lies. Then we agree those should be moderated.


No, "low effort provocations" has nothing to do with "disinformation" or "spreading knowable lies". I am genuinly astonished that you think all those things are synonyms.

news.ycombinator.com does this right -- moderators rarely moderate based on the message or idea in a post and their opinion about its truth-value. Rather, posts are moderated for being provocative, overly rude, including slurs, low effort, and so on.


I'm making the point that deliberate misinformation is provocation. Claims without evidence, baseless contrarian assertions with no semblance of logic, is provocation. Posting snarky one-liner "rebuttals" to a paragraphs-long post is provocation.

Not all of those things deserve the same level of reaction, but they are a disservice to useful conversation and should be moderated/downvoted accordingly.

I agree that HN does it correctly, so I wonder where our disconnect is.


> is spreading knowable lies

How about lies like the Earth revolves around the Sun?


>even if the things they're saying are true".

You added that part in yourself. You seem to be ignoring the concepts of disinformation, trolling, and bad faith actors.


No I didn't. The twitter thread we're talking about used "lab leak" as an example of something that had to be censored but the author also admitted he thinks the lab leak hypothesis is true. Something that was true had to be censored! (I don't think lab leak is true, I'd give it a ~30% vs ~70% for zoonotic).

I don't care about trolling, it's just a neologism for "making a joke" or "taking the piss". "Bad faith" and "disinformation" are words used by people who want to shut down certain debates.


That's only from a content moderation point of view. I would argue Twitter is incredibly mismanaged from a product POV. Barely any new features, buff Android app (at least for me), and Twitter Blue being pretty useless.


I mean, if you take it as a case for why moderation is hard, that's fair. But while Elon describes himself (identity politics) as a "free speech absolutist", his concrete proposals seem to include things like an edit button, long-form tweets and some monetization strategies.

I think the fairer critique of modern Twitter is that it prioritizes the needs of media personalities and PR firms over ordinary users, not that it isn't "free" enough. I am blandly optimistic about the prospects of things being shaken up at Twitter, and for who Elon is, it could easily be someone much worse.


> his concrete proposals seem to include things like an edit button, long-form tweets and some monetization strategies.

This sounds like an opportunity to diversify the media (and discourse) landscape with a different product.


It's not just harder than it looks, I would argue it's one of the hardest problems imaginable.


As insightful as this thread is, Elons reply is gold:

> My most immediate takeaway from this novella of a thread is that Twitter is way overdue for long form tweets!


It's very clever. It redirects of a raft of points Wong makes into a narrative Musk is pushing. It probably represents one of the reasons why he's so successful. :)

It also loses its luster on a bit of reflection -- this particular novella was in fact published on Twitter, and obviously got plenty of attention, including from Musk, so it's not exactly clear that Twitter's an unacceptable venue for novellas. Also, there's other long-form platforms that don't seem to have competed well with Twitter so far.

But maybe someone could pull off making such a thing work. Which is why personally what I'd like to see Musk do is take the assets he was going to use to purchase Twitter and build another platform, one with the features and values he's envisioning from the ground up. He might have the juice to pull it off, and it would help diversify the media landscape and discourse culture rather than just being a tug-of-war.


By the “I personally don’t like your policies” metric.


Isn't your sample biased? Distressed companies are more likely to attract takeover attempts (hostile or not) compared to healthy ones; and they are also more likely to tank. As far as I can tell, Twitter is not in financial distress.


from my understanding they've been going downhill for quite some time.


"I don't like it" != financial distress.

From Twitter's 2021 10K:

"FY 2021 Highlights Total revenue was $5.08 billion, an increase of 37%, compared to 2020."

2021 net losses were $221M, which is a big improvement on $1.135B in 2020.

Honestly seems like things are really shaping up @ Twitter.



I’m actually a bit amazed they aren’t profitable yet. Hasn’t their user base been stagnant/shrinking for years? What are they investing in?



They were profitable in like 2017-2019. Their financials are public, it's easy to see at a macro level where the money is going.


I'm curious to see how this holds up without the events of January 6th driving so many ad impressions.


Not really, as a counter argument, there is every reason to believe that Musk will make a mockery of twitter and run it into the ground. A social media platform with a lot of responsibility is not for someone as egotistical as Musk. If Zuckerberg is bad, Musk could be catastrophic.


Elon has run several companies immensely more successful than Twitter. He also planned to address some glaring issues on the platform. There is almost no question he would have been better than current management, which is destroying their platform.


The companies he run do very different things. I dont think there is any garuntee his success will transfer domains.

But it would certainly be interesting to watch.


> Elon has run several companies immensely more successful than Twitter.

Like all things, it depends how you count. The problem I see vis a vis Twitter is it's private company and a public utility at the same time.


I don't think it's run like a public utility. Twitter takes stances that might seem 'centrist' in politically blue areas, but seem biased in red areas.

Personally, I think Musk would run it more fairly.


Yes it doesn't fall for the false centre ground.


Twitter is very clearly not a public utility by any means


Yes, you can read a dictionary. That being said, many people consider Twitter to be a public square. so, de jure vs de facto.


The shareholders no longer care what happens to Twitter once they are shareholders no longer. (Except insofar as they are Twitter users.)


That need not be what the board wants and long term shareholders want. This pressure to accept an offer is for institutional (hedge funds) and short term investors. This thought process is similar to when the company decides to invest in the business at the expense of stock buy backs for example, the way Bezos ran Amazon for a long time.


Tell that to all the employee with shares or options.


I'll let you in on a secret: every person who runs a company is egotistical. It's not possible to run a company otherwise. You've got to have confidence in yourself and your ideas.

Of course, some hide it more assiduously than others. I don't mind Musk boasting. He earned it. It's more refreshing than the fake modesty of others.

A CEO friend of mind once called me up all worried because someone called him arrogant. I told him of course you're arrogant. He was shocked. I laughed, and told him to look at his accomplishments - who but an arrogant person would ever have even attempted those things!


Egotistical is quite different to confident. Narcissistic and egotistical people often have a fragile self-image. Prone to destructive rage[1] with the slightest insult.

[1] like calling someone a paedophile without any evidence.


"Mockery" i.e. not censor people who say things you don't like.


It’s a completely ridiculous narrative to think that musk is interested in anyones free speech but his own. We should all be more aware of when the narratives billionaires pitch about themselves become perceived to be objective reality.


While I don't dispute that Elon is first in Elon's mind, I (perhaps in ignorance) have no reason to believe that he wouldn't take a principled stance and apply the standard he wants for himself to all. That's certainly what he's claimed.

I don't find the assertion that billionaires inherently lack integrity a compelling argument. In the spirit of honest inquiry, do you know of any reason specific to Elon that I should not take him at his word?


Because it takes a particular kind of person to become that rich and wealthy. When the whole Epstein scandle unraveled, it was eye-opening to me that all these people intent on being wealthy, powerful and influential, were also morally dubious. Elon has clearly sought wealth and power throughout his life. Twitter is the most influential social network on the planet - maybe he thinks that he could transition from the richest person in the world, to the most powerful.


It’s important to note I didn’t say anything about his integrity.

There’s a pretty significant area of scholarly research in business and entrepreneurship that criticizes “mythicization” of successful individuals.

What those scholars argue, basically, is that media as well as business researchers take the words of successful people as inherently true and important. The result in, say research on entrepreneurs, is that what successful entrepreneurs think is meaningful is reported as de facto true and important. The critique is not of them saying it - it’s of others accepting it as valid based on the heuristic that successful people must be right. It’s a critique of the resulting research for not being objectively defensible, but instead just reinforcing societal norms as reality.

In my comment, my criticism isn’t of musk it’s of others. Believe me, musk, you, me, everyone tells stories about our selves and our beliefs from our own perspectives. It’s how other evaluate and use those stories as objective rather than subjective that can be problematic.

C.f,, the other comment replies I got


If Elon was really only concerned by his own free speech he could easily using the small change in his pocket to create elonmusksays.com, have 10 people run it, and his daily quips and insights would be there for all to see and presumably quoted anywhere and everywhere.

Elon always has bigger plans and ability to execute on them then people seem to acknowledge.


Why is it completely ridiculous?


elon is very popular. how would he run it into the ground


“Musk will make a mockery of twitter”

how do you make a mockery of something whose only purpose is to manufacture consent for war profiteering?


Wow, what utter hyperbole. Can you cite any evidence?


As a shareholder and end user of the product, I agree.


you want to cash out with a 20% bump and be out of the stock during a huge tech equity downturn when the stock was over 60% higher last year?


A 20% bump with zero risk? Yes please!

Even if you think Twitter stock will go up 20% next year, you'd want to take this offer. If you think it will go up 50% next year, you might still take the offer because of the risk:reward ratio.


Sure, you take that 20% bump and invest it in Google. Then you get 20% plus the tech equity recovery.


Rookie mistake: the fact that a stock was once higher is no indication whatsoever that is "worth" that much. That was then, now is now.


It has meaning primarily insofar as other people think that it might have meaning.

Technical Analysis is madness, but there is method to it.


Yeah, I don't know much about TA, but I think it probably works better for well-established cyclical stocks, not for growth (or lack thereof) stocks like TWTR.


It's funny how many people think that means it'll go back up. Twitter's stock has been sideways or down most of the time. It was $69 back in 2014.


I think last year was some serious bubbliciousness, not the true value of Twitter and all the other tech companies (and shitcoins and NFTs and basically everything else people were throwing money at)


That's your typical small shareholder in a nutshell.


Elon said he'd keep as many shareholders as he's legally allowed to.


"Elon said" is not a stamp of trust anymore. Elon also said TSLA would accept Dogecoin, which he had accumulated prior to communicating it. Then he sold it off.

History should be a lesson here, it's almost Deja Vu with Twitter


Tesla does accept Dogecoin for some items

https://shop.tesla.com/product/s3xy-mug


Lol, literally two. A mug and a “cyberwhistle”.


Reminds me of Erlich Bachman in Silicon Valley saying "I say a lot of things".

https://youtu.be/XM7_eqtljUg


Sure thing you can buy stuff from Tesla with Dogecoin.

https://www.tesla.com/support/dogecoin


What does it mean to keep shareholders in a private company. Isn't there a limit of 2,000 or so?


And also that tesla was going private at $420 a share.


His twitter offer is suspiciously $50 + 420 cents


If you watch and believe his TED interview from the last couple days, there was much more going on there than meets the eye.


He also said Tesla would have FSD better than humans within a year. Frankly, I don't believe him.


Poe's law in action.


The big reason it tanked was privacy regulations from Apple/Android. That's not changing to favor Twitter and effectively took away one of their biggest revenue streams. That's a big deal for a perennially non-profitable company.


Read some Matt Levine, he's way more articulate and makes finance quite fun. But if I were to take a stab at it:

The market has been so weird recently that stock splits - which according to previous theoretical belief do not create shareholder value - have in fact increased the share price for extended periods. So issuing stock for whatever reason (high price, poison pill) could be seen as shareholder maximizing.

One could say diluting the stock so that a particular personality cannot buy the whole company could be shareholder maximizing as it would entrench ESG held values -- emboldening new shareholders to purchase the stock (saving the stock price).

And point of information, by diluting rather than selling already owned shares, control is not ceded to the potential acquirer -- unless the potential acquirer doesn't care about the poison pill and will pay the premium for the new issue as well.

This is quite fun to watch.


> The market has been so weird recently that stock splits - which according to previous theoretical belief do not create shareholder value - have in fact increased the share price for extended periods

You're right that theoretically, they shouldn't create value, but I think even back to the 80s and 90s it's been shown that companies that go through a split tend to out perform the market for years after the split. The main reason isn't that the split creates value, but rather that companies who go though a stock split are usually successful and already on a trajectory to beat the market, split or not.


> even back to the 80s and 90s it's been shown that companies that go through a split tend to out perform the market for years after the split

Going back to the late 60s [1].

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Hemang-Desai-2/publicat...


So that selection bias seems to project that buying before a share split is actually not an educated+good decision


I think it still is. I'm going to try to find a source, but I saw an analysis where they measured from a year before the split, the day the split was announced, and the day the split was executed all until one year after the split was executed and the returns on all of them beat the market as a whole.

That being said, holding before the announcement performed the best.


> I'm going to try to find a source, but I saw an analysis where they measured from a year before the split,

There's a bit of time travel / survivor bias with this one. A company that has not beaten the market is much less likely to split its stock. In other words, if I know nothing other than that a company is splitting its stock, I can reasonably guess that it's shown good returns in recent history.


Yeah, that was their whole point. Stock splits don't cause better returns, but the stocks with the best returns are more likely to split.


I agree stock splits broaden your investor base because you are now more affordable. It's psychological magic.


There is no reason to think that issuing more shares would have the same effect as stock splitting because they are very different things.


IMO, Matt Levine is mostly writing with his tongue firmly in his cheek when he suggests stock splits and meme stock antics are Rational Things Boards Should Do For Value.

Excellent source for financial news though, I agree!


Stock splitting isn't dilution. It is the equivalent of breaking a $10 bill into 2 $5 dollar bills. Dilution is just printing more $10 bills aka inflation.


Though that may be the technical definition, I consider any increase in float or number of votes a diluting event


Matt is awesome. Super-smart guy, I love his perspective although I must admit I rarely read his newsletter nowadays.


90% of Twitter stock is held by institutional investors. Feel free to sell your shares. No one will notice.


This POV needs to shove it, because even those institutions can have their resources revoked by people waking up and accepting capital allocation is their responsibility.

This is the toxicity that has younger people rightfully angry at how the system works, and how it is "rigged". People just haven't had the info bandwidth previously to even contemplate these problems.

So no. WalterBright should absolutely do with his shares as he wilt, as should everyone else. Frankly, I wish institutional investment was deconstructed to at least get people coordinating with each other from the ground up to accept what it is their institution's manager was actually perpetuating.


Institutional investors are the backbone of municipal bonds that help small towns borrow and build. They back all of the retirement vehicles in the U.S.

They give a financial stability to places that need them.

One of the reasons Twitter is stable is because of those types of investors and is not subject to the whims of individual shareholders.

No corporate leadership wants to be subject to the whims of the stock market if they can avoid it. Twitters board and its institutional investors the firewall against such things.


Did I give the impression anyone would? I pointed out that I have a financial stake in Twitter in order to show that I have skin in the game that contributes to my pontifications on the topic. I'm not merely a disinterested observer.


Can you give some examples? I know one company that had the poison pill provision and did well.


Two companies I'd invested in and lost my shirt on after the pp. It left a lingering sour taste. I'd rather not name them, I'm still sore about it.


That's fair. I am not sure if "poison pill" is the cause of companies going belly up though. Surely, we have contradicting examples.


> Every company I know of that did a poison pill to prevent a takeover wound up tanking within a year or two and the shareholders wound up with sand.

Which companies are these?


Are you going to sell? If not, why not?


I'm not. Though I wouldn't have been too upset to pocket a 20+% gain, I bought at the start of 2022, bolstered by Jack's ouster. They need to figure out a paid tier for celebrity accounts, cut the fat from the staff (it's really not that complex a piece of software relatively speaking), and get profitable. Scott Galloway saw the potential well before Musk got involved.


I'm considering selling.


[flagged]


The idea that the board's fiduciary means they must maximize profits at the expense of all else is a bit of a myth. Yes, they need to look out for their shareholders but they also need to do right by the company, and companies can be formed for any legal purpose and everyone (the company and the shareholders) values things differently. It's generally been upheld that the board has a lot of autonomy and, outside of gross negligence, is generally protected by the business judgement rule.


Under DE law, my understanding is that you are slightly off on this.

Boards do have a duty to maximize shareholder value. THAT SAID, the business judgement rule provides that judges will not second guess the board absent evidence of gross negligence or total disregard of duty. This is because the Delaware court has decided that judges are not better than boards at evaluating business decisions.

BUT! Overcoming the BJR is very difficult unless management stupidly says the quiet part out loud.

Dodge v. Ford is a celebrated case in this regard because Ford basically said at trial "Yeah my main consideration in taking [specific action] is not maximizing shareholder value" and the judge was like "Haha no, that's not how any of this works - you can't do [specific thing] now." But if Ford was like "Yeah [specific thing] would be GREAT for shareholders" under the BJR the judge would have been like "Okay, great, keep doing what you are doing. How could I possibly know better than you?"

Also there is no "need to do right by the company" - squeezing value out of the company and all of its stakeholders is completely consistent with the duties of the board members. How else would the private equity industry exist? (jk!)


I said this below but I don't think Dodge v. Ford is particularly really plays much into modern case law outside of the judgement rule. To my knowledge, it's never been cited in Delaware (against the board at least).

A case that stands out more to me (being both more modern as well as at the federal level) is Burwell v. Hobby Lobby: "While it is certainly true that a central objective of for-profit corporations is to make money, modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not do so." in reference to furthering religious goals instead of profit. (https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/573/682/#tab-opi...)


I hear what you are saying. Hobby Lobby is an important case but to me Hobby Lobby doesn't really implicate the same policy concerns. Hobby Lobby was a closely held (read family held) private corporation. I agree that the language is dramatic, but I don't really think it the case has much to say about the duty to maximize shareholder value in widely held or public companies.

I read that quote from Hobby Lobby as saying "Sure, where you own the whole thing you can do what you want, whatever, it's not like you are hurting any other shareholders" but I would hesitate in relying on getting that type of language in other fact patterns.

Note that the plaintiff in Hobby Lobby was the secretary health - not a disgruntled shareholder.

Edit: a word


> have a duty to maximize shareholder value

Not to maximize profits. Courts give companies a wide berth in defining shareholder value.


Right, though I don't think it is so vague as to be meaningless. The stakeholder / shareholder value debates in corporate governance play on the extremities of this distinction a lot, with the current koan being that what is good for stakeholders is good for shareholders.


> don't think it is so vague as to be meaningless

It's not, particularly in the context of takeover defenses. There were cases in the 80s where Delaware ruled that only shareholder interests--not all stakeholders'--can be considered when a Board uses its "business judgment" to deploy a poison pill. But shareholders can have aims other than maximizing profit, and companies are free to respond to them.


Right, though it is an interesting question of whether those values either have to be (1) directly fiducial (2) couched in some theory of fiducial return or (3) can be entirely non-fiducial. Doesn't really mean much in practice because management can always just cover their ass by saying that the other aims are also good for the bottom line - even if it is nonsense.


you're confused. It's not the law that said boards have duty to maximize shareholder value, it was Jack Welch, gone but not soon enough.


> Yes, they need to look out for their shareholders but they also need to do right by the company, and companies can be formed for any legal purpose and everyone (the company and the shareholders) values things differently

The board has a lot of leeway into how they achieve profit for the shareholders, but all decisions they make must be nominally in the interest of that goal (assuming we're discussing a for-profit company such as Twitter). They can basically claim anything they do is done in the interest of shareholder value and be safe, but if they said "we know the company will lose money on this, but we really like X so we'll spend company money on it", they would pretty clearly be in breach of their fiduciary duty.


At least in Delaware law, a board's fiduciary duty involves a duty of care, loyalty, and good faith. While acting to maximize their personal interests or egregiously working against profits could be considered a breach, not trying to maximally make profits probably wouldn't be.

All of this would need to be litigated on a case-by-case basis, but many modern cases have found that companies can freely act to maximize the wages of their employees at the expense of dividends or act charitably even when there aren't tax breaks.

That said, I'm not sure this really even applies in the case of Twitter---I think its not unreasonable to argue that the innate value of Twitter is so much higher than what Musk is offering that its better for the shareholders to wait even thinking purely in terms of profits (I would probably personally disagree with that, but I don't think its any more unreasonable than plenty of other valuations I see)


Yes, they don't have to maximize profits, but they also can't ignore profit to the benefit of other values they deem more important, per the very old but still in force Dodge v Ford.

As long as they are not egregiously and obviously acting against that goal, or taking decisions without deliberation, the law would favor them in any trial that only hinged on whether the price offered by Musk was better than the market. Basically the burden of proof to show that it could not have been a good business decision would lie with the plaintiff, and I very much doubt that you could build a solid case of that.


I mean, saying "We are concerned about a hostile takeover attempt by a person who isn't allowed to be an officer of a public company anymore because he has show himself either unwilling or unable to be a fiduciary for stockholders, and we are trying to protect our stockholders from him" seems like a slam dunk in court.


Musk is offering to buy out all stockholders, so if the sale goes through, he will be the sole owner of Twitter, and all current stock holders will receive cash.

On the other hand, the board can easily say "we don't beleive this deal offered by a person who isn't allowed to be a public officer of a company anymore will ever go through, either because he will retract it or because he will be unable to secure funding; and we beleive attempting the deal will hurt stock prices and profits for current shareholders" and then I agree, it would probably be a slam dunk in court.


I don't think Dodge v. Ford isn't a great case to cite here for two reasons: 1) I think the trend of accepting that corporations can exist for reasons other than to generate profit is a post-ww2 phenomenon and this case is from 1919 2) Perhaps more importantly, Dodge v. Ford was a case before the Michigan Supreme Court and, to my knowledge, has never been used in a case in Delaware.


We are the largest perennially unprofitable company to ever exist. The richest guy in the world offered to invest a fifth of his net worth into the gamble of turning our company profitable while making our shareholders a massive profit.

Instead, we poisoned the system knowing that the stock is all but guaranteed to tank massively reducing our market cap and hurting our ability to take out still more loans to continue our unprofitable venture.

But we're holding true to our other nebulous values.

They'll have a very compelling argument.


To prove a breach of fiduciary duty, you generally have a very high burden of evidence, unless you can show some conflict of interest or obvious lack of deliberation.

Otherwise, the business judgement rule is applied, where the presumption is that the directors acted in good faith, and you would essentially have to prove that it is impossible for Twitter stock to grow beyond the current offer.


What answer could they give for their actions that isn't immediately disprovable garbage?

Do you really think that discovery would show that this was all in good faith?

I'd bet heavily that a lot of ideological discussions would be disclosed. As that is completely contradictory to what Twitter claims is their goal, bad faith would be the only remaining option.


I would bet that no such ideological grounds would be found in discovery, even if it were true, unless the board are complete morons to discuss such things over email.

Instead, it is easy to expect they would discuss the sincerity of Musk's offer (the chance that they may accept it only for it to be retracted, as happened with the board membership offer), the plausibility of him having the required financing, the stock price today vs 6 months ago compared to the offer, and similar business discussions.

I also don't personally believe this is an ideological battle at all - it's much more likely to be a financial manouever or simple ego-driven ambition by Musk.


> The richest guy in the world offered to invest a fifth of his net worth into the gamble of turning our company profitable

That's his publically stated claim. Whether that's what is really going on is another question.


You gave a very clear example of a breach. To add to your point, Elon's offer is both conditional on financing and too low, so we will implement a poison pill would never be seen as a breach.


Achieve profit is not the same thing as provide value or best interest of. It could be. It does not have to be.


A for-profit company is there for profit. There is no other way to interpret shareholder value in a for-profit company, for purposes of discussing fiduciary duty.

Now, providing profit/share-holder value need not mean maximizing said profit - it just means that profit must always be considered in any business decision, it can never be entirely ignored in favor of other things.

Note that not even shareholders get to decide what kind of value they expect their board to offer them. That definition of value is set in stone by the type of corporation. The board of a for-profit company has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of the company as pertains to profits.

If 100% of the shareholders of Twitter voted to ask the board to sacrifice profit for free speech; and the board decided to ignore this request entirely and publicly announced they would limit free speech at every trun to focus on profits, the shareholders would have no chance of winning a breach of fiduciary duty trial against the board. The board has no legal duty to uphold some abstract values that shareholders hold dear, they only have a legal duty to act in the interest of company profit as they see fit.


> it just means that profit must always be considered in any business decision, it can never be entirely ignored in favor of other things.

The word "entirely" is doing a lot of work there.

> The board of a for-profit company has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of the company as pertains to profits.

This is a dramatic oversimplification that borders on falsehood, as you noted yourself in your previous paragraph. As a trivial example, the board would be entirely entitled to claim that their goal is very long term profit maximization, and that this will result in decades of losses (effectively Amazon's strategy).

We also now have "Public Benefit Corporation" as a codification of a for-profit corporation that does not have profit as its primary motivation (at least in 35 states & DC), but obviously that does not apply in the case of Twitter.


> As a trivial example, the board would be entirely entitled to claim that their goal is very long term profit maximization, and that this will result in decades of losses (effectively Amazon's strategy).

Yes, but that's still a profit based motivation. My point was that the board of a for-profit company doesn't have a fiduciary duty to represent non-financial interests of the company or shareholders.

That is, you can't sue the board of a for-profit company because they didn't uphold their fiduciary duty to represent your interest of having a free-speech platform, even if you had made it very clear that to you this is much more important than profits, and even if you owned 100% of shares [well, you can sue, but the case will be quickly thrown out]

Conversely, the board can always claim that they made free speech a priority because they believe that will help drive long term profits, even if shareholders asked them to focus on profits to the detriment of free speech, and even if profits immediately tanked after this decision; and they will likely win in a trial.


I'm not a corporate lawyer, and by no means an expert, but I think this is propagating one of the great myths of the last 40 years or so. Profits/finances are not the sole-arbiter of success, even in for-profit companies. A fiduciary duty is not simply to profits, but to the success of the company (however it and the shareholders measure it). Granted, they likely need money to continue with whatever is their measure of success. There will always be those that feel that the sole duty of a company is to profit, but that doesn't mean they are correct.


Ok, try to find a breach of fiduciary duty trial that didn't involve profits (discussing a for-profit company, not a public benefit company or other organization).

The famous Dodge v Ford was about Ford increasing employee wages and reducing prices, at the cost of profits. One of his main motivations was to avoid paying out dividends to the Dodge brothers, who were using said dividends to bootstrap their own car company. The trial found that Ford has ample leeway in running the company as he sees fit, but can't simply ignore profit completely or do things with the sole purpose of avoiding profit.


That trial specifically seems pretty specific to his attempt to avoid paying the Dodge brothers. And I'm not saying the courts don't sometimes say that profits are the most important thing, and I'm not even saying they aren't important. But that it's not the sole thing (or even the definition of) fiduciary and so a board of directors could, as fiduciaries, make decisions at the expense of maximizing profit.


Not sure this is true, if they believe the long term outlook is higher than the hostile price, they are being good fiduciaries.


Are you claiming that this common kind of poison pill provision is illegal?




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