Nope, complete propaganda by the Indian govt. I have family there so I can confirm. The Indian media is completely sold out to the govt and will only present highly selected and curated pictures. Social media is where they can't control the narrative. The Indian govt unleash sate sanctioned mobs on these protestors, desperate resort to break up the protest. Now they had to ensure that the truth stays under wraps. Hence, cut off internet.
Complete propaganda here. The oligarchs and nationalists are pushing down the minorities (Sikhs, and Muslims and poor). A t the end of the day those funding Jio and other Oligarchs (Hi Mark, Hi Bond), will end up catching blame with a black swan event goes down. Follow the money, VCs and Facebook fund up these same oligarchs that press and kill hundreds of millions.
This forum is a product of VCs and big tech. A huge portion of Silicon Valley wealth comes from enslaving and subjugating Asia.
This audience is probably the people who need to hear it most, but also the audience that it would upset the most.
When did hacker culture evolve from loving technology and rebelling against the establishment into placing profits above human lives? Is a nice tech salary all it takes to purchase one's humanity? What about the promise of VC billions?
The profit motive subjugates the poor, perpetuates genocide, and upholds slavery. Technology is not some humanist savior, it has been twisted to exploit the many and serve the few. Maybe one day our advanced technologies will work to serve and uplift the people rather than suppress them.
Does a US company contracting with say a Chinese company to produce its products help or hurt Chinese workers? I think it would help Chinese workers by increasing employment in China and generally improving the Chinese economy.
Exporting environmental waste, abusive workplace exploitation, unsafe practices and lack of self-reliance, are the counter arguments. We need a healthy mix of both, not the extremes.
My thought is that the more wealthy a country becomes, the more it can push back on environmental waste, and the more workplace regulations its workers can demand.
I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I was talking about the protestors attacking cops of which there are a lot of videos on social media. The video I linked above shows them jumping from a fort to save themselves.
There is plenty of propaganda floating around from both sides. If you dislike muddy waters, I would recommend staying out of Indian politics. It is a clusterfuck.
To add to your top comment, these events - protestors attacking police personnel and protestors raiding Red Fort and raising their own flags - happened on republic day, which is like a mini 4th of July for India (we have two: 15th August, which is when India became independent and 26th January, which is when India adopted its constitution). On Republic Day, India observes the president furl India's national flag from the Red Fort, so seeing these events unfold, especially seeing a flag other than the Indian flag at Red Fort on Republic Day, were of very big symbolic value.
Own flags, which Indian Army encourages, allows, & make a new recruit to Swore upon when recruited. Same flag is the flag of that Regiment, saluted by Prime Ministrr on every Jan 26 parade on Punjab state's vehicle (jhaanki, kind of vehicle is converted & decorated with things showing culture,).
Same modi, whose Delhi Police tramples the Tiranga, whose party flies the Tiranga lower than party flag, whose mother party RSS has never flown that flag ever in their premises, events even in 52 years since 1947.
Yes, agreed, & thats why 100s of Sikhs are now in Jails around Red Fort, without any access to Lawyer or Phone Calls. But Modi Bhakats are tweeting all the way Missing Indira Mummy. They also want to burn Sikhs just like any power hungry party, be it 1984 like Congress, 2002 like Godhra.
Modi bhakts would be on the side of sikhs surely. Sikh community is the reason Hinduism survives in large parts of India. The people you are calling “sikhs” were throwing policemen off heights. Do they get to kill without impunity? What are you defending here exactly?
No, they are & always wished death upon non Hindus. & Carried it too. Godhra, 1984, & many others.
No need to add sikhs in Quotes, those are Sikhs. Many of them are in jails. Do you want to be the judge & executioner on the spot? Any mob who damages or hurts, should be controlled, & then tried. But in India, if that mob is Hindu, then it never happens.
You asked for sources for Modi bhakats wishing death upon Sikhs in 1984 style. You literally asked Who is wishing Sikh Killings! I provided the sources. Only 6. There are millions of tweets & videos, where BJP RSS Hindu are saying We Miss Mother Indira.
If that’s the case, do you have a single source for any RSS leader saying that? How did you count there are millions of these tweets? How did you ascertain their origin?
I am not going to do the work for you. You don't wanna believe, thats fine, your choice, uour opinion, your freedom.
You asked Who is wishing, I gave you tweet links, now if you want, can click through those profiles. Them profiles have photos of Gandi & Jinaah with Text Dividers. Savarkar as Veer. Modi as Best Prime Minister in world as per UNESCO. That's how I made the connection that they are RSS or Supporters. Because many of them are in RSS Uniform.
You Modi Godi Bhakats are wishing to teach Sikhs a lesson, by repeating 1984 & Godhra, burning & teaching lesson. I thought you are on HN, most probably not being paid Rs 2 by BJP per post. These tweet links are only by one search on Twitter Indira Gandhi. & Many of these have photos of Modi, Savarkar & such. You stop just repeating what Dalal media is feeding you, Fox news equivalent from India.
& Stop conveniently not answering my points, but twisting & gas lighting.
All I wish is Modi dictator goes away back to Gujrat if they want, people vote him out. Anybody who thinks about people, is not extremist, not lier, not fake, should be voted in. Not rahul gandi, not Kamal nath.
Replying here as I can’t reply below. What is that? A show of sick fucks wishing people dead? What is your point? You can find those everyday on Twitter. Why are you trying to paint this disgusting picture based on that?
That's how BJP IT Cell rolls. Their operatives have been caught out in sting operation many times. heck, some of them have come out in the open themselves.
You repeatedly posted flamewar comments in this thread. We've had to ask you before not to do this. We ban accounts that won't stop doing it. Please don't do it again.
He's talking about the fact that the RSS did not raise the Indian flag till about 2002. And that their historical opposition to the flag is well documented.
Wow, that seems to be correct. I wonder why they would do that. In my childhood I went to an RSS school and we used to hoist the national flag all the time. Strange.
That lovely linguistic sleight of hand means that people called a region bharat. By the criteria how come Sri Lanka is not included? Or how do you reconcile the 7 sisters being part of that? For that matter the word Europe exists - are you arguing that states should act like nations a la the EU?
More information has come out linking the violent folks to the ruling party. The farmers have said it's not their people. Indeed the leader of the group that entered Red Fort is a known BJP. There's a video of him running away when accosted by the farmers. It's such a mess.
Damn man the level of misinformation you guys are feeding in is at the next level. So which is it, the people who where rioting were actual farmers, sikhs or from BJP? In the same thread you guys are listing out all possible combinations.
In India there are Farmer organizations, labour organizations etc of all parties. The current agitation is by farmer orgs belonging to opposition parties. This is just politics nothing else.
When the media fails to do its job then the people have to do it for them. Of course there will be condtradictory information coming in because the media has completely failed to provide a source of credible information. I'm not throwing out misinformation, but merely pointing out information that the OP missed and is available in reputable sources. There is A LOT of video evidence that points to BJP stooges inciting violence. The guy who hoisted the flag on Red Fort, Deep Siddhu is a known BJP supporter. Times of India , Indian Express, The Wire have all reported on this. Heck even Aj Tak had video where the BJP stooges are throwing stones at the protestors while an entire police battalion stands behind them doing nothing.
Yes, but those are selective video shots. Many videos on tiktok & whatsapp show where Reporters are telling their cameraman, Dont Show that, when camera goes towards Police slashing the tyres, throwing the flag at ground, & attacking 1 protester by 4+ Cop goons.
Yeah, police will control a rioting mob anyway they can. Maybe don’t brandish swords, try to run over public and police and attack people in your peaceful protest?
The Godi media you are watching does not show the Delhi police trampling over Tiranga, slashing tires, shooting tear gas over a distance of less than 20 feet, blocking the route agreed upon.
So the police should make sure not to trample on tiranga while controlling a rioting mob?
Shooting tear gas is worse than shooting bullets?
Let’s not get into what was agreed upon. For that just look at the list of broken promises provided by the police and it’s crystal clear what these people wanted to achieve.
Pulling a tiranga from tractor, & rolling it, & then trampling it over while nothing else is going on, is I think bad. Police Brutality, as a scare tactic will always fire back on dictator's face.
This has been shown again and again by current administration and ruling party in India that power and ideology of pure Hindu state is more important than lives and livelihood.
On a grand display in 2002 incident in a province in India [1], please read the whole NYT article, before commenting on it.
Later on at display in Kashmir. Subsequently during national register and citizenship act protests where religious riots were used again to suppress a year of peaceful protests.
Than again during university protests in New Delhi. Here again students were attacked inside the university, police beat and shot university students. Still even one person from ruling party who participated in violence or a cop who shot is to be prosecuted. On the other hand most of those opposing are being charged with terrorist charges.
India to really progress out of poverty needs to first learn to respect its diversity and be united. Current administrations and ruling party’s policy has taken India on a downhill path of economic disaster, lower HDI, more poverty and more hunger. United Nations data and research don’t lie, India constantly slipped compared to its neighbours like Bangladesh on this index. So probably it will be better instead of hardline approach things change in India, otherwise it will be too late for a divided country to progress forward. It might on the other hand will move towards authoritarian dictatorship very quickly. India needs to come out of tyranny of majority and authoritarian mindset of current government for a change.
I hope this same story and violence does not repeat in Bengal, where already violence is being promoted to unseat local government which does not believe in Hindu supremacy like the central government.
Again you are parroting the same national agenda of the current Indian government of a Hindu state and Hindu way of living forcibly forced on every community in India. Recent example of local government passing laws to support groups and Organization who kill people who eat beef, another example of people of different religion marrying needs approval from state government (calling it law against love jihad). Not sure what is Stone Age medieval.
If you want to repeal laws in India, first study them. India has Hindu marriage act too, especially designed for Hindu undivided family with similar inconsistency.
In India a Muslim woman can choose special marriage act [1], where triple talaq is inapplicable. It’s not for you or majority to decide how that community should live.
If woman are unhappy with unjust law let them as community fight it. You don’t have to force your views or your self-righteous way for them.
Indeed the funny part is the woman of that very community you try to help, despise the current Indian government. If the purpose of the change was to help that community there will be some support, but indeed there is complete opposition.
Also to be married under the Special Marriage Act you can really only have a civil ceremony at a magistrates office. If you have a religious ceremony, it does not apply.
In any case the ceremonies are much too elaborate to be held in magistrates office without cutting corners. So they are held at home or marriage halls.
But it isn't abolished in all states, and India is the largest exporter of beef. Beef politics is new and a recent BJP/Modi/Adityanath invention.
It is the same tactics the British used to divide the country, and simply used as a tool to target Muslims.
The fact is that Hindus eat beef and there is no religious proscription against it, that is the whole point of "Hinduism being a way of life".
Secondly - old cows are not a resource, and farmers do not care about them. You cannot support their population without making cows useless to farmers. So cows get slaughtered.
The efforts made to politicize this has lead to herds of cows destroying farmers and farm land. Now that the attention of the population is away from cows, I bet farmers and politicians are busy shipping cows to be butchered once again.
Its pretty amazing that no one wonders who is selling these cows to be killed, it only becomes an issue when muslims eat meat.
Conveniently leaving the truth that those state government which banned beef is same as central government (ruling central government party). People killed on suspicion of storing beef in home refrigerator is also perpetrated by central government party and its members (this is the reason no one got punished or prosecuted for mob killing). Central government has wide powers to initiate investigations and punish local officials as they have constantly done to muzzle political opponents in every state where they are not in power.
> marriage act
There is a reason it’s called Hindu marriage act and it’s very patriarchal with lots of inconsistencies. Not just this, there are many laws in India which needs repeal or reform like laws on sedition’s which are conveniently used by current government to put people in jail without trial trampling basic human rights. For higher courts it’s important to judge what a comedian can say or not say and habeas corpus cases are just kept pending. A minister of central government is outraged and any court takes up the case with utmost urgency, and person languish in jails for years waiting for their habeas corpus plea pending hearing.
> Muslim reforms
Let that community decide what reforms they want, don’t impose your will on them.
May be follow a bit of Buddhism to do self introspection and all will be evident.
Nationalistic and religious flamewar will get you banned here. You did that repeatedly in this thread. Please don't post any more like this to HN, regardless of which side you're fighting for or how right you feel it is.
>>Beef consumption has been forbidden in most Indian states since independence and supported by all political parties.
Only 'Productive Cow(milk yielding)' slaughter was forbidden until recently. Karnataka(Ruled by same party as the center) recently banned all bovine slaughter. Farmers now say they will happily pass on the expenses to take care of unproductive cattle(calves, bulls and older bovines) to consumers in the form of higher priced milk.
Regarding the remaining thing. As a Married Indian muslim who has registered their marriage. All Indian muslims go under special marriage act whose provisions are way way more stricter than the Hindu marriage act. They even send out your application to the local mosques in Bangalore to check if this is a genuine alliance or if the couples have eloped and parents have objections to file. The time given is 45 days. All the best registering a marriage between a Muslim and Hindus.
>>It may forbid triple talaq but other provisions like custody and alimony still apply.
Literally negligible follow triple talaq in Muslim community. In my entire biological and parents biological existence and our entire network of friends and family we don't of a single case of divorce happening this way.
Things like 498a and DV laws apply to all Indian citizens as they are criminal laws.
The reason why people protested against 3T is because even a random stranger could accuse a Muslim man of 3T and the criminal proceedings begin, with arrest and imprisonment of the Muslim man. tl;dr a law created to reign in strong men who wouldn't bow to your political/religious harassment.
>>Protests, crazy ones just like for the CAA.
It's quite a telling about you when you say refusal to walk into concentration camps as crazy.
And the reason all this happens is because a uniform civil code is unpalatable to muslims. We would be in a better place if we didn't have polygamy and good divorce, custody, alimony laws instead of religious laws.
> In India a Muslim woman can choose special marriage act [1], where triple talaq is inapplicable. It’s not for you or majority to decide how that community should live.
I agree with you on general gist but not this. Seriously? You don't think muslim women are oppressed by these medieval age laws and need to be changed? You don't think bringing religion into laws was a horrible idea, and live jihad is just the other side of the picture of triple talaq laws? You can't just hate one side and turn blind to the evils of the other.
Consumption of dogs is banned in the US. Dogs are a delicacy in a number of places. Quite different from discriminating by gender and treating one gender in a marriage as chattel I would think.
It is banned but did not permit anyone to kill other people without impunity on suspicion of having dog meat in refrigerator. So may be please get facts right before arguing.
It also offers protection for "persons acting in good faith" as no suit, prosecution or other legal proceedings can be instituted against the competent authority or "any person exercising powers under this Act."
That does sound damning. What are these powers? I know villagers here have been stopping traffickers from cow smuggling since forever. What powers is this ordinance giving them is not detailed in the article. I am pretty sure killing won’t be allowed though.
How many have these 'villagers' have been convicted or even arrested. The government does a wink wink and they are released on bail and their cases buried under humongous paperwork. These is how, among other things, the government sanctions public lynchings.
The anti-cow slaughter Bill has been drafted in such a manner that cow vigilantes will be granted protection under Section 17. Interpreting the “good faith” clause means that no suit, prosecution or legal proceedings will be initiated against the vigilantes if they can prove that they committed the act in such a manner.
States with stringent laws on cow slaughter have often reported high cases of lynching by cow vigilantes. According to a report of the New York based Human Rights Watch, 44 people in India have been killed by cow vigilantes within a span of three years. The report further revealed that these radical cow protection groups often received support from politicians and law enforcement agencies.
Political and nationalistic flamewar will get you banned here. Please don't do that on HN, regardless of which side you're on or how right you feel it is.
>I am doubtful if any Army officer, even if they are Sikh, will support what happened at the Red fort. Also the protests were supposed to be representative of are farmers, not just Sikh farmers. Giving it a religious angle will be detrimental to the protests.
Not sure what's the fuss. People who disrespected the flag are on the record. Police can arrest them. Why to malign the whole community?
BJP has disrespected the Indian flag so many times by flying their own party flag above the national flag.
Never said anything about red fort & army. I repeat, Nishan Sahib & Jaikaara is official war cry & flag of Sikh Regiment. Home minister, prime minister, president salutes to it in every republic day parade. Modi wears that Khanda symbol oh head when visting Gurudwaras.
Rajnath, on visit to a army post,asked a Sikh Officer to do the War Cry.
I am used to that fact. My comment doesn't oppose anyone's right to follow their religion in any way. I would have opposed the act even if the flag belonged to some other entity. And for the record, we are talking about hooliganism which has caused injuries to scores of people.
The BJP has won and lost elections that were run using EVMs. They literally won a national election and lost state elections in the same EVM run elections. Are you going to tell me about Biden supporters somehow having stolen the presidential election while losing house seats by ballot stuffing now?
I am half Sikh and many members of my family served in the Indian military, including in Sikh regiments. I would FAR prefer a BJP central government to a Congress one. Before you listen to another word of Congress propaganda, google the Delhi Sikh Riots and the role senior Congress party members like Kamal Nath played in them. The BJP may not be particularly erudite English speakers and may deliberately choose not to participate in debates at Oxford like a Shashi Tharoor might. They don’t want care to play to a western audience in that manner. But unlike the Congress they don’t put mafioso or wife killers in senior positions no matter how suave they may be.
Trump and Modi are not from the same Universe. Modi noticed Trump loves adulation and let him have all he wanted. That is just smart diplomacy.
No worries, I understand. Many sikhs here support Trump. Mostly who are here since ages, & are businessman, does not pay minimum wage, employ & exploit asylum seekers. And I am also sikh, although does not wear any sikh symbols like Hair Turban.
No where I said we need congress government. Modi dictator need to go away. India was progressing way way more in Manmohans rule (yes, there were million bad issues were too, no denial). But Modi's rule is dictatorship.
Delhi 1984 need to be punished, by Singh's or by Government, or by people. Yes, that includes Rajiv, Indiara, Kamal Math, Everybody who was involved. #NeverForget1984
You can't even compare Biden Support to modi Supporters. Biden won fair & square. The greatest president has world's most secure elections under his rule, & fraud happened? No, he lost it. Simple. I am Democrat pro, want Sanders, but will work with Biden, because the other option was Twice Impeached Orange. Never. A lesser evil is better than bigger one.
RSS has a MBA Think Tank in Nagpur, thinking over every next move to keep the power clutched in their bloody hands forever. Its a rouse that winning every election will seem sus, so lets lose some smaller ones.
Serving in military does not give one a certificate of something. Its a profession. Nobody is forced. Its for money, just like any other profession. Teachers, Cashiers, Servers, Firefighters are equally important. Nothing morally special about being you or family in military. Millions of racist bigots work in every country's military, thinking themselves as Patriots, but infact are just racist.
Also to be clear, I’m not super pro BJP or anyone. I’m pro competence. I’m certainly not pro some of the nonsense that the various state BJP governments pull, including the past beef related hysteria.
Modi himself is not pro that nonsense as he has mentioned more than once. However, to govern he does need to create a big tent. Beef ban vs 15% of Indian women legally treated as chattel. Which battle would you prioritize?
As far as India doing better under Manmohan Singh? I like Manmohan Singh. I think if he actually had freedom to act rather than being a puppet he would have done really well. But frankly, in terms of how the country did it’s not even close. And if the Congress won again, you wouldn’t get Manmohan Singh. You’d get Rahul or Kamal Nath.
I don't understand how banning beef has anything to do with Indian women being treated as chattel.
You can prevent the latter without dictating my food habits. Also, if you're so intent on saving the cow, why is India still the world's largest exporter of beef? Because banning exports of beef will hurt the corporate masters who fund the BJP.
Exactly, many of the beef factory owners are BJP members or Supporters. It should be simple to rule, provide safety, & quality of life, but dont dictate what to eat or wear or marry or sing or dance. As long as its not a defined crime, people should be able to decide if they want to eat beef or celebrate valentine.
>You can't even compare Biden Support to modi Supporters. Biden won fair & square
So did Modi. His victory in elections was accepted by all his rivals as fair and square.
> But Modi's rule is dictatorship.
How is it a dictatorship? Modi won fair and square in an election conceded by all his rivals. If you don't like him, then vote him out. If you cannot vote him out, then you can claim to it being a dictatorship.
But you can go and vote him out. And sorry, the majority of the country not accepting your views to vote him out is democracy, not dictatorship.
You are correct that Modi won popular vote. But this one chancellor who is rather a poster child of being a bad boy won his election too. Note also the fact that only about 50% of the people exercised their vote so there is a large fraction who aren't that enthused about Modi
So you are claiming that the video in the comment above is fake? That the sword was photoshopped in as part of a misinformation exercise? If you are claiming this, then it sounds something straight out of an Indian QAnon conspiracy theory.
> I have family there so I can confirm.
I happen to live there myself. So I can confirm that these sword wielding protesters were attacking policemen armed with sticks (Indian policemen are not armed with lethal weapons). I saw this happening from my own window with my own eyes.
Can you provide some sources on how RSS is the nazi model. Or is this all based on just one paragraph from 1938 (before it all happened) in one of the books? Subhash chandra Bose met hitler and asked for help against the British rule, is he a nazi now?
Would love some sources for RSS goons beating up a protester or activist. Mind you RSS and not some random goony org off the street.
No, thanks. I am not interested in helping you whitewash their history. It is common public knowledge that the founders of RSS were an admirer of Hitler and his party. (And they still continue to admire and glorify Hitler). The RSS is also a thrice banned terrorist organization whose members are involved in various communal riots and also assassinated Gandhi.
And no, Subhash Chandra Bose is not a Nazi because he didn't embrace their ideology. He was a secular and left-leaning revolutionary who believed that the British could only be overthrown by violence and revolution, and thus relied on the opportunist political maxim that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"to ally with Germany and Japan. While an inspiring figure in indian politics and its freedom movement, his politics was ultimately foolish, as the Japanese occupation of some parts of India, with his army's support, highlighted - the imperial army of Japan considered us as second-class citizens, as did the Nazis, and showed it with the brutality against the indian citizens in the occupied territories.
Yes, why counter with facts when you can say it’s just “common knowledge”. I will not try to talk you out of your beliefs. But I can assure you from first hand extensive experience, RSS is not “nazi”.
You are making extraordinary claims at least specify one “admiring and continue to admire” source.
“If we Hindus grow stronger, Muslim friends … will have to play the part of German Jews” -- Golwalkar, Father of RSS
"To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races -- the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by." -- same guy in his book "We -- Our Nationhood Defined"
These quotes are indeed common knowledge and easy to find.
It's easier for westerners to understand. Within India the popular term for them is now Sanghis (for Hindu religious fundamentalists) and MuSanghis (for muslim religious fundamentalists).
From RSSs role in the MK Gandhi's assassination, Gujrat's riots, to the Samjhauta Express bombings, Ajmer Dargah attacks, to the cow vigilatelism, beating up couples at valentine's day - the list is pretty long to consider RSS as Religious terrorists.
Given your knowledge in these matters I am sure you know that Bajrang Dal is part of the RSS ideology in the sense its part of the Jan Sangh. That you chose to ignore that makes me doubt the degree of good faith in your question. You are just trying to poison and cloud the discourse.
OP mentioned RSS as terrorists because their members did violent acts. Now i know a religion whose members are usually involved in terrorists acts. We don't label them as terrorists as it should be.
So tell me. Are you consistent with you beliefs on labeling groups?
That's pretty much all the government cosy media does -- handing out certificates about who is patriotic and who is not.
If members does an act in the name of an org and that is against the values of the organization. Its for the organization to clarify that their values do not match with the cations taken by these group. This is what the farmer protester groups did when violence occurred. This what they did when cell towers were vandalized.
The RSS on the other hand has stayed mum which in normal course of action will be and is taken as tacit support. Of course I don't read all of RSS's press releases. If you have pointers to RSS official press releases where they have condemned specific attacks I would be very interested to read.
> Are you labeling a religion as terrorist because of some of its people
You are just trying to avoid answering the question by adding extraneous and irrelevant diversions. Sorry wont bite your bait. BTW I was not aware that RSS is a religion.
This much I am willing to claim -- RSS is a silent approver of right wing acts of violence starting all the way from Gandhi's assassination to more contemporaneous cow slaughter related lynchings.
Unlike the farmer protests that have distanced itself from acts of violence and vandalism I am unaware that RSS has done that for the violence that has engulfed India in this govt, but am willing to be convinced otherwise.
The spokesmen of the government have frequently branded the entire protest and Khalistani and Pakistani. I am very tickled that you seem to be outraged not by the act of the government which has real implications but on the comment someone made on the internet. That might be quite indicative of where your sympathies lie.
I did not event bait you. I was replying to OP and you inserted yourself.
You got yourself tangled because you could not honestly answer the question. Since you became aware you are not consistent.
See OP mentioned RSS as Religious terrorists because of its members. So to the logical conclusion Hindus are terrorists because of its has organizations like RSS/Guj riots involved in it. So you just called a million Hindus terrorists. Anyway whatever makes you happy.
Yeah keep spreading lies if it helps. It really shows you and those that you support in revealing light.
This is very good because these chats and their logic is public and for all to see and make their own judgements. Thanks for making my job easier.
Pray enlighten me where I have been inconsistent without shoving your words on my mouth, and where I have called a million Hindus a terrorist.
You remind me of Sambit Patra the BJP spokesperson who was asked about the number of zeros that are in trillion when he was going on and on about Indias trillion rupees economy. All this Patra could respond with is invective that the person who asked the question should go and ask Rahul Gandhi -- a cheap rhetorical device used to clutch at straws when one does not have substance to offer.
This is very good because these chats and their logic is public and for all to see and make their own judgements. Thanks for making my job easier. - that goes either way. All can see that you are trying to diverge the conversation instead of answering.
You refusal to answer the question indicates that you agree with it. Else its a simple answer.
Let me ask myself that question. Do you consider a group of people a terrorists simply because some members indulge in it. NO I DO NOT.
That's it man. No grand conspiracy. No name calling nothing. Why not a simple answer. All are inherently biased. But that should not deter us in calling out inconsistently.
Which question have I refused to answer ? I made quite clear where I stand as far as the RSS or the farmer protests are concerned. I will say that yet again, RSS has over its history been a silent approver of acts of violence refusing to distance itself from such acts. The farmer protests had sections, possibly govt sponsored, who indulged in violence. The farmer protest bodies have condemned these harshly and distanced themselves.
On the other hand you have not yet pointed out where I have called millions of Hindu a terrorist or where I have been inconsistent. Its you who called me names (that I consider millions of Hindu a terrorist)
Religious flamewar, nationalistic flamewar, ideological flamewar, personal attacks, and tit-for-tat spats like this one are all badly against the site guidelines and off topic here. We ban accounts that get into this kind of thing. Please don't, regardless of which side you're on or how right you feel it is. It's not what this site is for.
Too deep. I don't like deep comments since it usually means its going nowhere. But assuming you are sincere in your effort to answer the question(Which question I have refused to answer ? I made quite clear where I stand as far as the RSS or the farmer protests are concerned.).
So once again, OP(not you unless you are alt!) said that RSS are religious terrorists because of their activities. Now as as i know they have not denoted a bomb which killed hundreds. But maybe the term applies because of some of their other activities like lynching(Though this happens to Hindus as well, do we then consider the other party terrorist. No answer needed. There would hundreds of comments while you divert away from answering :)
Here goes. One last hurrah
So do i label group of people as terrorists because of some of its members. NO.
For you. You can fill in the blanks.
So do i label group of people as terrorists because of some of its members. __.
Religious flamewar, nationalistic flamewar, ideological flamewar, personal attacks, and tit-for-tat spats like this one are all badly against the site guidelines and off topic here. We ban accounts that get into this kind of thing. Please don't, regardless of which side you're on or how right you feel it is. It's not what this site is for.
Yes. That is correct. But is it applied consistently. The op I responded was calling a group terrorist. I see many comments attacking a religion. I don't any reply suggestion a ban for these. Or I can't see those messages? Whatever be consistent.
We certainly intend to and try to apply the rules consistently, but the problem is that we can't come close to seeing everything that gets posted here. If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com.
One thing's clear: political/nationalistic/religious flamewar is not ok on HN regardless of which side people are fighting for or against.
Except that RSS is actually modeled after Italian fascism, and this is not a secret or anything. I was actually being literal there.
Moonje in 1931 went to Italy to learn from Mussolini about fascist organization and ideology, to use it for shaping RSS.
Here is a quote;
"“The Balilla institutions and the conception of the whole organisation have appealed to me most, though there is still not discipline and organisation of high order. The whole idea is conceived by Mussolini for the military regeneration of Italy. Italians, by nature, appear ease-loving and non-martial like the Indians generally. They have cultivated, like Indians, the work of peace and neglected the cultivation of the art of war. Mussolini saw the essential weakness of his country and conceived the idea of the Balilla organisation.... Nothing better could have been conceived for the military organisation of Italy.... The idea of fascism vividly brings out the conception of unity amongst people.... India and particularly Hindu India need some such institution for the military regeneration of the Hindus: so that the artificial distinction so much emphasised by the British of martial and non-martial classes amongst the Hindus may disappear. Our institution of Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh of Nagpur under Dr Hedgewar is of this kind, though quite independently conceived. I will spend the rest of my life in developing and extending this Institution of Dr Hedgewar all throughout the Maharashtra and other provinces.”
“ If anything the Indian media absolutely loves to troll and embarass the government, “...” I would suggest the media in India is far freer of government influence than the mainstream media in the United States”
This above argument is a joke. A good majority of the mainstream media in India are paid for and/or afraid of the current government. There is plenty to be said about this but I want to stick with farm bill issue.
You say: “ current farmer protests, they are demanding that minimum price supports not be removed.” That is not the demand. The demand is to ensure that these new trading places outside of the mandis support the minimum price. The minimum price is a not a law but these mandis do follow them especially since the government also procures crops from the farmers. The farmers fear that with non-government buyers entering the market they would be less incentivized to buy them at minimum price. There are couple of links below that go into more of the nuances of the bill and what the farmers fear.
These articles are precisely the kind of trolling a lot of Indian media does.
There is a law that authorizes the government to set an MSP. That is precisely all an actual piece of legislation should do. Governments and administrative bureaucracies need flexibility to function. The details in any sane government are worked out by administrative rule making which is constrained by other laws.
This authority is used by the government and has been used by the government to set an MSP every year for 70 years with the MSP constrained by other legislation that also constrains other budgetary activity.
Or do you think instead parliament should instead figure out the MSP for 2050 now or maybe have a legislative session including a massive lobbying free for all by the buyers and sellers every year. I’d rather have the MSPs set in a rule based fashion with some limited and rarely used discretionary authority to change the rule based levels as is the case under the law now.
Under the law, all parties have to abide by the MSP, period and in any event even if they didn’t, which they have to do, the farmers can get the MSP at the mandis and directly from government buyers. Why protest? If the new buyers won’t pay up, don’t sell to them.
Have you ever in the history of the world, heard of any bona-fide business person acting in good faith, protesting a new buyer, who was previously prevented from buying their product by legislation, entering the market? The actual farmers, the vast silent majority, are, if anything happy to see this happen.
First one is giving the freedom to sell produce anywhere instead of designated grain markets. Sounds good? Until you realise that Grain Markets Officials were there kind of observers (at least in the spirit of law). Now Companies with teams of lawyers can deal directly with illiterate of private farmers. the las specifically gives only DM as highest arbiter in event of disagreement.
Second one is giving freedom to store produce as much as one wants. Sounds good on paper until you realise most of the produce (wheat, rice, veggies, anything) need special environment to store. Which private farmers lack & only Adani Ambani have access to those modernized silos. Guess who is going to buy it cheaply at harvesting season & then store it for months/years & release the produce to market to maintain the artificial scarcity? Sounds similar to modern diamond industry.
Third One, removing the MSP, Minimum Support Price. Anybody can pay as high as they want to buy the produce in open market. Ambani gave free 1GB internet for two years to drive out the competition in mobile network market. Its a known business plan in SV to bleed money to drive other competitors out. Ambani's competitors are small scale flour mills, shop owners, contartors, small scale sellers. Guess who will be out of business in 2-x years by Ambani's unlimited money & guvernment support?
If you think teams of lawyers are fleecing illiterate farmers, start a company and go buy produce from the farmers for 10% more. Nothing stops you from doing so. If you think the the private buyers won't honor MSPs, setup an NGO or file public interest litigation.
Do you realize how many inefficiencies are caused by pre-Independence and 1960s rules around how much food you can buy and store? Again, if you think they are cornering the market, buy or build a grain silo and compete.
India has the absolute lowest costs of mobile service in the world today. Jio remains the cheapest option in India and in my experience has by far the best service. Jio no longer offers free service but it's still cheaper than anyone else and is almost an order of magnitude cheaper than the prices offered by legacy mobile companies when they came on the scene. How exactly is Jio fleecing consumers?
Why shouldn't a better, cheaper service drive out the old players who can't compete at the same level? That's how market economies should work.
So do you expect to send the army in in Punjab like 1990s Kashmir? Why was Modi’s handpicked LTG Murmu suddenly transferred when he came out in favor of restoring 4G? You have to have a plan to restore it, even your SC says so, you can’t just gazette new ordinance every day and do “the beatings will continue until morale improves”
In a democratic country, if you want to change policy you need to get elected. If you are a civil servant, you can advise but if the elected decision makers decide otherwise you either execute the orders or you resign. Allowing someone who refused to execute legal orders and who publicly expressed dissent to be transferred in this situation is actually recognition that healthy debate is good and speaking out in a democracy should not be punished, particular when the dissenter is an otherwise extremely competent individual working in the best interests of the country. It's certainly not something an authoritarian would do. However, elections have consequences. In the elections in question, twice, a majority of the supposedly oppressed group, Indian Muslims, has voted for the current government. Unless of course you believe that female Muslims or those male Muslims who want to live in the 21st century shouldn't count.
The Supreme Court determined that as a general matter communications should not be restricted and that any ordinance to restrict communications needed to be on the basis of a determination that restrictions were needed that was reaffirmed periodically. The Supreme Court could have required the government to restore mobile access to Kashmir as of a specific date and the government would have been compelled to do so. They didn't, because the Supreme Court of India like most of the silent majority in India understands that a citizen's rights only exist so long as the State itself exists. All rights can be suspended in an emergency. A bill of rights is not a suicide pact.
The restrictions are not a restriction on any individual or group. They are a restriction on a geographic area. The majority of state citizens of Kashmir, certainly a majority of the residents and descendants of residents of Kashmir in the 1970s, today resides outside Kashmir. Most left due to terrorism. There are no restrictions on them, no matter their religion or political beliefs. Remember, there are areas in the US where no radio transmissions are allowed[1]. If you reside in Kashmir today, you are free to travel outside the state. If you do travel outside, you can use your mobile phone to your heart's content. If you aren't a resident of Kashmir and you travel to Kashmir, no matter your religion, ethnicity or other grouping, you can't use a mobile phone while there.
>because the Supreme Court of India like most of the silent majority in India understands that a citizen's rights only exist so long as the State itself exists.
There is basic structure doctrine, no? Otherwise why not just have Emergency again
> The majority of state citizens of Kashmir, certainly a majority of the residents and descendants of residents of Kashmir in the 1970s, today resides outside Kashmir. Most left due to terrorism.
No, all Kashmiris are state subjects. However virtually all pandits, about 40% of the population in 1970 and about 35% of other Kashmiris have left the state and that is a majority. Kashmir, the state is a pretty big place. It’s not just the valley.
Now you're telling me Pandits went from 40% in 1970 to 5% before 1990? Did Dogras in Jammu become Pandits now? Are you talking about Ladakh being hived off?
Hmm. Only in BJP Math Classes 40% out of 100% is a Majority, & 60% rest are minority. Because 40% is Hindu, & 60% is non hindu. All citizens are equal, but every Hindu is more equal than non hindu.
the hindu reports only 19 pandits were killed
> A total number of 38,119 families comprising 1,42,042 Kashmiri migrants were registered with the Revenue and Relief Ministry till now.
No No, you are a Sikh, so you will have value when they need to show off that they are a pluralistic country to the west.
I mean the BJP government passed a law that said "we will allow citizenship for minorities who are of all religions, except Tibetans and Muslims" Then in the next breath talk about how this is not targeting a specific religion.
I really do hope people argue the case, because at least for external observers the hypocrisy is clear.
No, they said all people who are ALREADY here (on it before 2014) and were promised protection and citizenship at the time of partition will have that promise fulfilled. Everybody and people of all kinds get citizenship using the same rule as before, there are no bans or changes.
You know, it's funny, then someone brings up Hazaras or Ahmedis and it's like that scene in Baadshah where the clock strikes 13:30 (not trying to invoke any baara baj gaye stereotypes by stealth sorry in advance)
> The Act only codifies into law commitments the Indian Government made when India split into India and Pakistan.
(Disclaimer: not an expert) As far as I understand it, the specific thing that is problematic is that the rule discriminates by religion. The original agreement did not, and even if it did, why would you want to take a policy enacted half a century ago and implement it unchanged without revising it to be less prejudicial?
To explain why the ACA was needed you first need to understand some history and facts on the ground.
Pre 1947, India was all of modern day India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and parts of Afghanistan. When the country was partitioned, it was partitioned into Pakistan (modern day Pakistan and Bangladesh) which was set up as an explicitly Muslim nation with a state religion and an explicitly secular India which welcomed all religions. There was a massive migration of people which was extremely violent. It would not be exaggeration to call it a holocaust. Neighbors joined mobs and killed neighbors of the wrong religion, entire trains were burned. There was plenty of violence on both sides of the new border. As this violence was stopped, Gandhi, Nehru and Jinnah made an appeal to people to stop leaving because the more people that left and hence abandoned businesses and jobs, the more the economy was hurt. As part of this appeal a promise was made that any Muslim who wanted to migrate to Pakistan at a later date would be permitted to do so and be treated as if he or she had migrated at that time and any non-Muslim who wanted to migrate to India would be treated the same in India. The promise was further voted on and approved by a precursor to the constituent assembly of India which setup the constitution.
As it turns out, at the end of the day, virtually all non-Muslims who lived in modern Pakistan left for India. Lahore, a city in modern Pakistan was 50% Hindu, 20% Sikh in 1945. Today it's 99% Muslim. In contrast more Muslims live in India today than in Pakistan. What this means in practice is that the non-Muslims who chose to remain in Pakistan were the ones who were relatively wealthy and/or powerful and often individuals with large businesses who decided not to leave due to a combination of wanting to protect their assets and a reliance on the promises made in case things change. As the years went on, many of these individuals wanted to get the hell out of Pakistan so they liquidated their property and came to India, often with large amounts of liquid assets. Now, if you are an enterprising, corrupt immigration official, they were great targets and they would often end up having to pay material percentages of their assets as bribes. These individuals have a further problem. Unlike Muslim refugees from Pakistan, when they left Pakistan, their Pakistani citizenship would be revoked so they were stateless and desperate. The ACA was primarily designed to solve this problem.
India has taken in and continues to take in plenty of Muslim refugees, far more than the US or the EU takes in. There is a recognition that the Muslims who migrated to Pakistan from India are to this date discriminated against in Pakistan as Mojahirs, entire sects of Islam like the Ahmadis, who choose not to ascribe to the harsh interpretation of Islam are classified as non-Muslim and then have to deal with frankly ridiculous treatment. However, when these refugees come to India, they are typically destitute. So there is no incentive to bother them to try and get them to cough up bribes. As a result there was no problem to solve.
Could something different have been done? Sure. But legislatures are sausage factories. The government needed to ensure that it had the votes for legislation that made it easier to immigrate from a country which has sent terrorists to India and taken over a major city and killed hundreds of people there and attacked parliament. And this legislation solved the actual problem and got passed. You can't let the perfect, particularly when the so called perfection is mostly cosmetic, be the enemy of the good.
Again, any refugee from anywhere in the world, of any religion can seek asylum in India. It's fairly straightforward to be allowed to live and work in India, far easier than anywhere in the West, no matter your religion or background. Refugees can get Indian citizenship by following a series of steps, typically in 12-14 years. The ACA does not change any of this. The ACA simply gives affect to the promise made in 1947 which was also voted on by the constituent assembly and is hence binding on Parliament that non Muslims who did not emigrate at that time from certain areas would be treated as if they had emigrated at that time if they emigrated at a later date. It creates a process by which these individuals, who still have to go through the same security checks etc as any other refugee from Pakistan can get citizenship in 5 years. Rather than getting permanent residence in 5 years, while still being stateless, they are granted Indian citizenship.
You do realize you are talking to someone with Ahmedi parents married in Rabwah whose forefathers belonged to Qadian? I never heard anything about CAB helping them. (and by the way, you spelled Mohajir wrong)
This is utterly incorrect. Indian press freedom itself dropped to 142, down from 136 in 2016.
It is a known fact that a majority of Indian channels are now completely beholden to the government.
Finally - the laws in question include a clause that prohibits access to courts for anyone with a dispute. Even people not affected by the laws are not allowed to bring a public interest suit to the courts.
The Indian courts are slow and bad. The Indian farm sector needs reform.
These are not those reforms, and this governments track record on execution of complex economics is terrifying.
