I have had my personal stint with trying to "expose" an Indian startup (I am an Indian), also coding related which gained some traction on LinkedIn (around 500+ reactions, if they mean anything).
This guy is in serious danger, trust me. I had to delete my linkedin post when my ex-manager called me to delete it otherwise the startup's employees will go crazy and try every which way to make my life hell.
Unfortunately, thats what you get in living in this country and trying to voice your opinion (without any strong political and financial credentials).
I have mentioned this earlier, people keep complaining of "brain drain" here in India as tech graduates keep leaving India for opportunities abroad; I thought I won't be that one and will do something for the country; it's just too difficult, I have add enough, I can't wait to leave.
I always tell people to just be anonymous, having your personal identity linked when saying anything remotely offensive is just an open invitation for personal attacks and things like this.
The baseline level of self-awareness in people here is off the scale when you compare it to the typical Indian. People actually queue, instead of creating a melee at every counter. You're never worrying about people cutting you in lines. Cars stop at zebra crossings to let pedestrians cross. No one honks! They nod and smile "bonjour!" as they cross you on the street. There is no pollution here. The food is great, the coffee is even better, the $5 wine at your local grocery store is some of the best in the world. The employees you'll work with have some basic dignity and shame. If they don't know something, they'll admit it. They won't grossly lie on their resumes. You'll never hear the words "do the needful" or "prepone" or, my most hated "kindly revert back"! There is a basic amount of honesty here. You don't spend all your time worrying if the guy you're doing business with is fleecing you. You will find information about businesses online.
This place is as close to paradise as it gets on planet Earth.
Life, and especially youth, passes by in an instance. I highly advocate keeping this fact in mind in the face of do-gooders who judge you for your choices. The million small and large quality of life improvements lead to exactly that. A vastly higher quality of life.
I'm a native-born Canadian, married to a woman who was born in Bangladesh. I'm blown away by how much this list reads like an exact point-for-point description of why she moved here. (Except for the part about the $5 wine.)
You can use almost the same description for Brazil. Reading it made me relate 90% to even the small issues (honking, respecting pedestrians on pedestrian crossings and so on).
I think it's more of a common theme to unequal and impoverished countries where enforcement of law is tenuous at best and people don't trust others. If trust collapses everyone only cares about themselves and their loved ones, if bribing a police officer will help your kid to get out of a DUI... So be it, you will be considered an idiot if you don't do what the rest of society does, whatever small corruption or abuse that is. Because people know they will get away with it so why hinder yourself for such a thing as moral and values?
I know it's a very broad generalisation of huge societies, unfortunately it's my experience growing up in Brazil and why I can't ever live there again.
You'd be surprised to experience firsthand how low values like integrity, ownership and shame rank for an overwhelming majority of people. The general rule of thumb is "get by, somehow, anyhow". Another trait is having little to no perspective on what a higher quality of life entails. It is awful, and depressing.
A handful of people who are hurt and frustrated by this, share the same sentiment as the parent comment.
I am an American in California working as a Project Manager at a small ~30 person eCommerce "engine" startup. One of my new colleagues on the PM team is a very nice Indian girl and she always says "do the needful" in JIRA tickets and in general email communication. Before she joined the team about 2 months ago I never once in my life heard anyone in America say "do the needful". I am American and have lived here my entire life. I always thought the saying was slightly funny and almost "cute" in that no native American English speaker ever describes tasks to be done as being "needful".
Likely of British origin, during the Raj. I can imagine "Kindly do the needful, old chap" scrawled in the margin of an official missive, as it languidly flitted from one administrative table to another.
Many such anachronisms exist; thankfully, they're dying out one by one. A few decades ago (in the last century, to be precise), it wasn't very uncommon for official letters to be signed off with "I remain, Sir, your obedient servant". Later, it was shortened to "yours obediently"; it vanished altogether, thankfully.
It comes partly from the language, bureaucracy uses and expects in communication, given India's socialist history , weak market place pre 92 and strong presence of government owned businesses even today , it likely many of the their parents and grandparents worked in the bureaucracy, so it also learnt and home and also schools are poor at teaching soft skills like written communication or anything which won't help you ace exams and get a job.
It is also partly from workplace culture and what their mentors and bosses did when they were junior, somewhat akin to the polite language you hear in the U.S. South. You can pick up mannerisms easily, when you are not sure what is the right way to behave.
Not sure exactly what its origins are, but it's standard Indian English. It's a legitimate dialect of English, just like standard American English has its own unique idioms like "grandfathered in" (a term that has extremely racist origins).
Edit, for other's curious, as the person I'm replying to said, it's not racist per se, but has its origins in racist practice:
> The term originated in late nineteenth-century legislation and constitutional amendments passed by a number of U.S. Southern states, which created new requirements for literacy tests, payment of poll taxes, and/or residency and property restrictions to register to vote. States in some cases exempted those whose ancestors (grandfathers) had the right to vote before the American Civil War, or as of a particular date, from such requirements. The intent and effect of such rules was to prevent African-American former slaves and their descendants from voting, but without denying poor and illiterate whites the right to vote.
I'm always learning. I truly thought that the term was probably centuries old and had something to do with family legacy, old rules being followed to keep tradition, etc. You live, you learn.
I often hear people use the phrase "call a spade a spade", thinking it's saying "if a card shows a spade, call it as a spade (when showing the hand)", but I've heard for a long time that phrase is also racist. Not growing up around anyone who ever used that phrase, I would have had no idea.
Makes me wonder how many other phrases out there in every day use don't have a happy meaning, even though at first glance they might seem innocuous.
Similar to "chink in one's armor. A "chink" means "a narrow opening or crack", and a chink in one's armor means a weak point that makes you vulnerable to attack.
But "chink" is also an offensive term for a Chinese person, so "chink in one's armor" can be misunderstood, especially if what you are talking about actually involves a Chinese person. ESPN got in trouble a couple of times with it, even though they had used it thousands of times before without incident, because of a couple articles where the weakness they were describing on some team was a player who was Chinese.
> You'll never hear the words "do the needful" or "prepone" or, my most hated "kindly revert back"!
I hear your complaints. But does this really deserve a mention as a reason not to live in India? Are you really this upset over a few phrases that has no material impact on your life? Seems a bit pretentious.
It’s used by nearly everyone, not just babus. The memes in fact originate from engineers in India interacting with their international colleagues. In any case, it’s not something worth getting upset about.
I don’t think I’m missing the point, which is those phrases are used widely enough that they don’t signify babudom. It’s common workplace English and has no wider context than “it’s just Indian English”, not in this day at least.
Fair enough that what is worth getting upset about for me doesn’t apply to others.
Not the poster, but when I actively think about it, I use common sense, ask for clarification, use some imagination, and a reasonable margin of error (imo). Then I try to judge the situation/reaction.
Without that, the word overreaction is meaningless.
What is your social life like? I worry that post 30, starting a social life from scratch might be too much, especially for someone who is admittedly not particularly social.
I did arrive here a bit before 30, but I've been pretty lucky with it. In fairness, most of my friends are from work, so I got lucky. I've also been able to find love here.
I firmly believe that if you go to a country eager to impose your own culture and your own way of doing things, you'll see friction. If you're open-minded and willing to attempt to integrate, you'll find even a little bit goes a long way, and the locals will willingly meet you halfway.
As a 24-yr-old looking to emigrate within the next year or so, I couldn't agree more with your take.
I feel India as a country (I know I'm homogenizing India; but I feel exceptions are rare, if any) has decayed to a point where there's pretty much no hope left for folks with progressive views looking to lead a life (especially one with intellectual pursuits) on their own terms instead of conforming to incredibly regressive stuff that an overbearing "society" constantly howls into your ears with a bullhorn.
What options can you take for immigration?
I am curious as well as I am an Undergrad aged 20 who wants to live in different countries (especially EU and Canada).
I was thinking of taking a masters as I can then make connections.
Are there any other ways which can be taken?
I can comment wrt the United States, as I already have members of my family there who've established themselves there for a few decades now.
The most common route would be going there for Master's degree (MS or equivalent) and then later finding a job either before or immediately after graduating from your course.
But you can also try other avenues like directly trying for a job via work visa, get someone to sponsor you (via an immigration petition -- but you need a present a valid argument for this and also find someone you trust who've established themselves there), or find a partner there with whom you're willing to cohabitate.
I'd highly recommend trying for EU/Canada (as you mentioned yourself), Aus/NZ over the United States of America-- at least for the next few years until something resembling an immigration reform takes place -- unless if you have folks in the States who're willing to sponsor you or get you a good, well-paying H1B job.
I am sure it will be hard for India to come up to that level if people just keep leaving for greener pastures. Europe didn’t get to be Europe by doing that. Of course it’s your choice to leave, I don’t know it somehow smells bad to my value system, but that’s just my problem.
If enough people keep landing in Europe like this, I am pretty sure sooner or later, Europeans will be upset. It’s inevitable and human nature. Fixing your own place is better than crashing at somebody else’s.
To an extent, they are. But most of the conversation here seems to be about refugees and asylum seekers rather than legal immigrants. It helps that I'm more than willing to adopt the European way of life: fashion, food, work-life balance and all the rest of it.
As to your first point, that was the crux of my post. I no longer care (nor am offended by, mind you!) whether you judge me or not. I know how much vitriol coursed through my veins every day I was in Chennai, Bangalore, Delhi etc. And I know how much more at peace I am in France. I am a better human because of it; kinder, more useful to society etc. I would not trade any of it for more abstract notions of whether Europeans as a whole will be upset by the wider trends.
> And I know how much more at peace I am in France. I am a better human because of it; kinder, more useful to society etc.
At the risk of judging you, are you sure you are kinder? You just wrote a paragraph about “the typical Indian” in a fairly condescending tone and how you get upset over trivial things like “Indian English” phrases.
It’s okay to not like the Indian lifestyle, not everyone has to, even if you are Indian. But please give people a chance and be less judgmental in order to actually practice kindness. Kindness isn't selectively applied to the people whose lifestyle you like.
Haha, fair enough, you mentioned it twice now, so I concede that I might be kinder, but I'm still not kind per se! I suppose I was burnt by a youth spent yearning to escape and hence the reactions. I promise I'm pretty harmless in real life :)
Again, I hear you and relate to a lot of things you said. As I get older though, those things seem trivial and I’ve learnt not to idolize one culture/lifestyle over others. You realize that’s just the way people are in that part of the world and it’s not due to malice.
I wouldn't be too sure about it not being due to malice. All too often, what is plentiful is treated with contempt and not respected. One thing that is available in plenty in this side of the world is human capital. I'll leave you the dots to be joined.
It's not just the "lower tech companies", btw. It depends on many factors which include but are not limited to, prevailing company culture, your immediate manager, the existence of an implicit (or explicit) cabal that calls the shots in your team -- which cabal could well exist because its members passed out of the same three-letter institute, say ...
Which is just a long-winded way of saying that your soul is liable to be crushed in any kind of company in India if you have the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It sounds like you have immigrated perfectly. I always assumed that by the next generation, people are basically locals if their parents immigrated well. You're an example that it also works well within one generation.
But many european people who lean against open immigration policies will not make the rational distinction between you and someone who has not intergrated very well, and will instead judge you based on e.g. your skin color or your last name.
Laudable sentiments indeed. Could you also expound a little on _how_ exactly you expect the parent(s) to "fix their own place"?
Not everyone has to be a revolutionary. It is indeed human to tire of the fight, and equally human to want to live life without having to fight all the way.
It is easy indeed to judge everybody else on the basis of (y)our value system; it is harder to walk a few steps in the other person's shoes.
It's funny that that reminded me of James Damore. After his memo, there was I think an NYT article interviewing some women at Google's campus about their thoughts. One of them said something to the effect of "I just like to code, I'm not doing it to be revolutionary", but she was almost forced to take a position just through circumstances.
Being forced to take a position by circumstances beyond one's control is an unfortunate situation to be in. Worse still is being judged for it -- especially in a discussion without nuance. Moving past these events (and more) takes a fair bit of effort.
There’s an element of truth to this: in the 19th century a substantial number of Irish republicans found refuge in the US – enough to invade Canada! [1]
In the case of Australia, the trouble-makers were sent there against their will.
You could also consider coming to America, but I’m not exactly sure why.
It might be our strip malls, fetish with our slave owning past, white supremest president, anti-science pro-gun culture, or our vast obesity and narcissism.
But somehow in all of that, I still love living here.
The Ultimate Frisbee is great, lots of creative people, and we are starting to decriminalize psychedelics.
India has strip malls, a Hindu-supremiscist Prime Minister, a huge and powerful anti-science culture, and, last but not least, around eight million people living in modern slavery.
> The Global Slavery Index estimates that on any given day in 2016 there were nearly 8 million people living in modern slavery in India. In terms of prevalence of modern slavery in India, there were 6.1 victims for every thousand people.
I've lived in a poor country and also in a few of the wealthiest nations on Earth.
IMHO first you become rich, then once you have time in your hands to actually think about improving things, you do just that.
Becoming rich in a corruption-ridden country, however, tends to be next to impossible for the few honest people living in such place... so it's really difficult for enough honest people to become wealthy enough to start pushing for change to improve not only their own lives, but also that of those who are less privileged.
If you do manage to push beyond such threshold, however, I believe most people will start benefitting from the generosity of their fellow citizens, and slowly start to behave accordingly, i.e. politely and honestly and just kindly. Once you get there, it seems this new level of kindness in society tends to self-sustain, and that's when you know a country has become part of the "first world".
It's rare, though... I believe the latest example is South Korea, which has become a very advanced nation in just a few decades... wish there were other examples, but I'm not aware of any others besides perhaps China - but China does not exactly have a population and government I would decribe as "kind" :/ but I think they will get there eventually.
"IMHO first you become rich, then once you have time in your hands to actually think about improving things, you do just that."
'rich' -> 'improving things' are the same thing.
Individuals can 'get rich' just by being corrupt.
But a nation generally cannot.
Yes, natural resources will help, but they are never the true basis for progress, because without civility, the wealth generated from the resources will be fleeting.
Domestic consumption is generally the only long-term 'stay rich' strategy and it depends to a high degree on civility.
Saudi Arabia can do as they please and remain rich for a while, but it's not sustainable.
Canada, Australia can get a 'jumpstart' and have a 'cushion' due to natural resources but even then it's not obvious.
Most of Africa is rich in natural resources and they are poor, it's mostly a systematic issue.
> 'rich' -> 'improving things' are the same thing.
I meant "improving things" not just for yourself, but for your community. Most rich people in poor country don't give a shit about their community, to the contrary, they exploit them as much as they can without giving anything back.
IMO, it is the population and resource density that makes the difference in human behavior. I have seen densely populated, resource stretched cities in the west that will put an Indian city to shame in bad road traffic behavior.
And from the other side, there are remote mountain towns in the Himalayas full of some of the kindest, most hospitable people ever. So perhaps being packed like sardines isn't an optimal human state.
I have to agree with the assertion. The political will to change anything decreases with the number of people in the area. It's hard to break compatibility between versions when you have a language used by almost everyone (javascript) vs when you are a new hippie lang.
China seems to be the only exception here with PRC having draconian control over everything.
'Population Density' is a civic function, not some random variable.
Like many things, it's a random variable when there is no civic function, but once it exists, then it's part of 'planning' aka 'generating wealth' in whatever terms that means for a group of people.
How does a township with 50% unemployment also have garbage lying about everywhere? The marginal cost of employing people to at least collect is minimal. A town with 50% unemployment is extremely rich in excess labour capacity, they should be able to hire people cheaply.'
Why not? Because social organization is probably abysmal.
You have made some great points but stop shitting on Indian English. I don't like it either but you are coming off as an elitist shitting on people who are taught these phrases growing up.
I understand why that bit was provocative but please don't escalate into flamewar. It helps no one and just makes the thread worse. Besides, helmholtz already more or less took it back.
Eh, in hindsight, maybe I should have left out that part since it detracts from my other point. It's just an aesthetic thing. For instance, I really don't like the word 'purposely'. I never saw it used before the internet came about, and 'purposefully' and 'on purpose' worked perfectly well for me. I'm sure it's correct, but it just rubs me the wrong way.
Hahaha guilty as charged, and now I'm outside the HN editing limits. That's what happens when you try to type at the speed of thought. Serves me right, I guess.
This isn't a throwaway. I've been lurking HN for a while and never felt the need to comment before now. In retrospect that was a bit silly since OP has been pretty nice in all of their follow up comments. I still feel that while their criticisms are generally valid, they're a bit harsh.
For those not in the UK, the pearl-clutching here is about an incident where a bunch of teens had a fight in the 13th largest city in the country and four ended up stabbed. None dead (at the moment) and it is headline news here. I would invite the Americans in the audience to imagine a world where a gang fight that left four kids stabbed in Fort Worth, Tx was national news.
Yeah, let me tell you about what a dangerous shithole this place is becoming.... /s
National, no. But four teens getting stabbed in a single incident might very well be news in most of Texas, which is only about half the population of the entire UK, and well over half the population of England proper.
Four teens getting shot but not killed in gang-related activity would possibly make the eleven o’clock news but probably not make the front page of the large urban papers in Texas, certainly not national news. For a stabbing? No chance.
Good on you for trying. FWIW a general rule of thumb that I've discovered is that it's more worthwhile to listen to the doers than the talkers. And certainly don't be misled by the guys who tell you to sacrifice for the common good when they will not.
There is no racial tie to any place. As an Indian you have no more of a responsibility to improve India than you do France. You didn't choose that, you were just born there. That's like me mowing your lawn and then asking you to pay me whatever fee I came up with. India birthed you. But India did not first ask.
And whether the Europeans like you there or not is also irrelevant. You are a free agent. It's probably smart to be liked and to be useful but beyond that residence there is not a gift, it's a value exchange. No one would do that if they didn't get something from it (in aggregate).
Look out for yourself. Everything else will naturally come from that.
I'm sorry that this happened to you but now that it has happened to you and to this guy, I looking forward to the day when one or both of these two things happens:
1. anonymous whistleblowing/exposes of shady business practices becomes a thing
2. hedgefunds like muddy waters emerge in India whose goal is to find rotten companies and profit off them through short selling
Hope it rains creative destruction on such companies.
> anonymous whistleblowing/exposes of shady business practices becomes a thing
We need this so much, the guy who started this in fact was posting anonymously, but all his accounts from Reddit, to twitter got taken down following which he was forced to use his real identity and the developments the past few weeks followed.
>1. anonymous whistleblowing/exposes of shady business practices becomes a thing
Then companies will use this to post fake "reports" about their competitors to damage their reputations. This is a societal issue, technological solutions do not solve societal issues.
This guy is in serious danger, trust me. I had to delete my linkedin post when my ex-manager called me to delete it otherwise the startup's employees will go crazy and try every which way to make my life hell.
Unfortunately, thats what you get in living in this country and trying to voice your opinion (without any strong political and financial credentials).
I have mentioned this earlier, people keep complaining of "brain drain" here in India as tech graduates keep leaving India for opportunities abroad; I thought I won't be that one and will do something for the country; it's just too difficult, I have add enough, I can't wait to leave.
I always tell people to just be anonymous, having your personal identity linked when saying anything remotely offensive is just an open invitation for personal attacks and things like this.