Note that the upgrade will remove your Windows built-in DVD player. The right to play DVDs must be paid for every computer. You paid it when you bought the Windows 7 or 8 that you'll maybe upgrade to 10. Now the upgrade to Windows 10 takes that feature away from you.
They apparently (the twitter message isn't actually the company statement) plan to return it "sometime in the future" and "if it might be free or if it will cost" is TBA:
The Media Player capabilities, if you have them in your Windows edition, will be for ever deleted. Just so.
Moreover, note that the upgrade can reduce the functionality of your notebook: Microsoft made the deal with the hardware producers about integrating hidden partitions to allow the recovery from the hard disk, but the upgrade process will just make sure that the Windows runs, not that your recovery from the hard disk functionality, managed by each hardware vendor independently (based on the recommendations from Microsoft) would be preserved.
I don't use the recovery mechanism, but I do use backup. When the recovery partitions aren't right, the built in backup (which was kept from Windows 7) doesn't work on Windows 8.1.
The same story happened with the transition from Windows 8 to Windows 8.1 (I have such a notebook).
Anybody knows if the "Windows 7" style full disk backup survived in Windows 10?
"For a limited time (the “eligible period”), on systems upgraded to Windows 10 from one of these older versions of Windows (a “qualified system”), a DVD playback app (“windows DVD player”) will be installed."
And I've actually paid for the Media Pack upgrade. It goes away now for sure:
Me too. I'm constantly surprised by the amount of Stockholm Syndrome reminding behavior in the tech world. I'm not sure if this behavior is more common in this world or I see it more because that's the bubble I'm living in. Watching people bending backwards to rationalize their irrational decisions never ceases to confuse me.
> (...) any decision other than what you would have made is "irrational."
Of course! How would rationality be independent of one's values? When I'm choosing, I choose what I choose because I think the other options are, even if very slightly, worse than the one I'm choosing. If I know the full context, options and the decision made from another individual and that decision isn't the one I would make, I would call it irrational and that would be my opinion. That situation could mean that we don't share the same values/beliefs or have different information.
My curiosity stated in my comment was genuine as one would expect higher information equality and similar values/beliefs among the people in the same community compared to a random set of people. However, my experience is different. Even when new information becomes available, I see people bending their values to keep their previous decisions "rational" and interestingly this, if you ask me, is more common in the tech world.
> (...) jerks like you (...)
I think that was uncalled for, but then, I guess you have strong beliefs in this area. Have a nice day.
I don't think it's uncalled for that someone who would judge others and call them "irrational" for something like their smartphone choice be called out as a jerk.
I didn't call anyone being irrational and definitely didn't have anyone's smartphone decision in my mind (I had, instead, people arguing for their favorite programming language in mind, to be honest). Also, I think you are more judging than I am.
At this point, I can't take what you are saying as anything more than random attacks, sorry.
Except that's exactly what we were talking about here: Saying that people are "irrational" for not buying the same thing the poster did, in this case, Apple products. And I believe that if you care that much about what other people are using to the point where you would have to question their rationality, then you're a class-A jerk.
> The amount straw grasping I've seen when people try to justify their purchases leaves me unable to tell anymore
The Mac mention in the grand-(...)-parent is just an example there. Surprise: I own a Mac.
> Except that's exactly what we were talking about here: Saying that people are "irrational" for not buying the same thing the poster did, in this case, Apple products.
It seems to me that you are the only one talking about people being irrational or not. People can't be irrational. Decisions can and only with different knowledge and/or values.
> I believe that if you care that much about what other people are using to the point where you would have to question their rationality, then you're a class-A jerk.
Class-A attack towards a straw man! :) Your potential issues with a stereotype have nothing to do with what I said. Good luck in your crusade, though.
But not the DVD playback, which has to be licensed additionally. Being the person who also legally bought the DVDs (all of them are DRMd nowadays) it really hurts:
To which I already replied in the same thread - use VLC which decodes CSS on the fly, unless you live in a country that doesn't believe in your freedom to play legally purchased content and prohibits doing that(United States of America).
Of course, it would be nice if Windows 10 just included that and saved everyone the trouble.
Why can't I just play my media (which I paid for) on my hardware (which I paid for) in "normal" software (which... I thought I paid for). Instead I have to have the Xbox brand shoved in my face at every opportunity?
I don't find it very different from having the "Windows" brand shoved in my face with Windows Media Player, Windows Media Center, Windows Internet Explorer (formerly) etc. or the "Microsoft" brand shoved in my face with Microsoft Office, Microsoft Internet Explorer (formerly)... the OS is made by Microsoft, I expect to see mentions to Microsoft's properties and trademarks.
It would be like that if you were running these apps on an Xbox. But when you are running a PC, it doesn't make sense to brand them with Xbox branding unless they are services specifically related to the Xbox (e.g., Xbox Live account management or something). Otherwise it sounds like a weak attempt at cross-branding.
> Instead I have to have the Xbox brand shoved in my face at every opportunity?
I know this isn't your point, but you might be happy to learn that Xbox Music and Xbox Video have been renamed in Windows 10 to "Groove Music" and "Video", respectively. According to Microsoft, most users thought "I don't have an Xbox, why would I want to use Xbox Music?" — so they rebranded those apps.
Nobody is forcing you to upgrade. If you bought Windows 7 and have it on disc you can keep using it, even without installing any updates, ever! Then you can continue enjoying IE7, Windows Media Player, Windows Media Centre - all of which you paid for. But if you want to upgrade to a new version which doesn't have those "features" - then it's your choice. It's not mandatory, nobody is shoving anything in your face.
VLC plays DVDs just fine for free, by decoding CSS on the fly. One might argue that that "The right to play DVDs must be paid for every computer" but I have never signed such agreement with anyone, ever. If I legally bought a DVD then I can legally watch it - maybe in US people would argue that decryption of a legally bought DVD is "hacking" but fortunately I don't live in that beautiful country.
> I have never signed such agreement with anyone, ever
Until Windows 8, Microsoft did this for you behind the scenes. From Windows 8 onwards, Microsoft stopped doing it; you could either pay them to do it again, or OEMs would do it for you.
With 10, Microsoft just won't do it. I expect OEMs will still do it on new devices, but upgrades are anybody's guess.
For a limited time (the “eligible period”), on systems upgraded to Windows 10 from one of these older versions of Windows (a “qualified system”), a DVD playback app (“windows DVD player”) will be installed.
They aren't stealing anything from you, and they're not causing it to be "for ever deleted."
I just checked with my Windows 7 Ultimate machine I upgraded this morning and sure enough, I have a Windows DVD Player there. Like many users, I have no DVD drive and no DVDs, so I can't confirm it works.
Also, Windows 8 didn't come with a DVD license, you had to buy it separately as part of the "Pro Pack" or "Media Center Pack." The base editions of Windows 7 (below Home Premium) also didn't include one.
Honest question - who cares? Someone actually used the built-in media player? Step 1 for me on any new desktop/workstation install (regardless of OS) is to install VLC.
I have to believe the number of people who actually use that can be counted in the tenths of a percent of their user base.
Among people I know, I can think of a few who rent DVDs from Redbox and watch them on their laptops (we're out in the country, so the internet isn't fast enough for streaming video). They're not technically adept enough to know that they would need something like VLC after this update.
I would care if tbe Xbox one, which will soon be on Windows 10, stopped playing DVDs. But I don't think this would be the case, there is probably a specific player for it.
You can use VLC. After your comment, I wasn't sure why that was the case. Apparently:
> Neither French law nor European conventions recognize software as patentable (see French section below). Therefore, software patents licenses do not apply on VideoLAN software.
Well, there are 2 legal parts that apply here:
- DRM
- software patents.
Software patents for DVDs are almost all over (it's a 20 year old technology). And in Europe, we don't have valid software patents.
On the DRM part, libdvdcss is not DeCSS, it's either finding the right key or brute-forcing to find the right key. In order to play a DVD, you need to "open" the DRM, else you cannot have playback.
In the case of VLC+libdvdcss-bundle, it's usually fine in (sane) juridictions because it's a player, not violating the copyrights holders. On some other, it's illegal.
> And in Europe, we don't have valid software patents.
That is categorically untrue, and you should stop telling people that. In Europe, software is not patent-eligible "as such", but it is if it solves a technical problem.
The only thing that eliminates is "business method" patents, which are just a subset of what people generally refer to as "software patents".
The underlying motivation of the encryption on DVD's goes beyond preventing piracy. It's about making sure you cannot skip past the ads at the start of the movie. They needed a mechanism to require all DVD players to respect the flags on a DVD that say "this cannot be skipped", and did that by pushing it into the 1996 WIPO treaty that you must have anti-circumvention laws that prohibit people from breaking the encryption on copyrighted materials without the permission of the rights holder. Only licensed players are decrypting with permission. VLC is not a licensed player, so VLC often runs afoul of such laws.
Just because the patents expire doesn't make the anti-circumvention laws go away. Those laws only stop applying once the copyright on the DVD expires, in a century or so.
Well, those anti-circumvention laws, for example in Germany, only apply in some cases. For example, as soon as software is included on the CD, too, breaking the DRM becomes legal.
But see also this (on the same page) if you're using VLC in the US:
"libdvdcss
libdvdcss is a library that can find and guess keys from a DVD in order to decrypt it.
This method is authorized by a French law decision CE 10e et 9e soussect., 16 juillet 2008, n° 301843 on interoperability.
NB: In the USA, you should check out the US Copyright Office decision that allows circumvention in some cases."
That is actually illegal in Finland because it's illegal to circumvent the copy protection. Technically you need a licensed player. A few people have turned themselves in for watching a DVD on Linux and they received a token fine.
It's hard to find working links for old stuff (this was in ~2007), but...
The law made "organized discussion" about breaking copy protection illegal so they also created a website with the title "organized discussion" and displayed code for breaking the protection and someone also paid 5 cents for it after which they turned themselves in :)
Apparently the lower courts acquitted them but that was reversed and the supreme court didn't take the case. So the end result is that it's illegal but they didn't receive any penalties. Apparently the European court of human rights didn't accept the case either.
It's not about what "can" be done, you can also install the pirated software too, the thing is, by buying legally Windows 7 or Windows 8 Media Pack or Ultimate I have really paid the DVD playback functionality to Microsoft as well as the other features I've mentioned.
Also read about the legality aspects of the Microsoft's DVD solutions up to now and of the open-source DVD players:
Yes but you do not have to upgrade to Windows 10 and they made it pretty clear they removed these softwares (it warned me when they proposed the update). This is unfortunate but I don't think Microsoft has been evil here.
Everyone has to stop using that as an excuse. It doesn't even make sense & it's myopic. Obsolescence is built into Windows. If you want to continue being safe using Windows you NEED to upgrade. You can choose not to upgrade, but it's at your detriment.
If it was 2020 you might have a point, since that's when they'll end-of-life Windows 7. But it is 2015, you can use Windows 7 with Media Center and your DVD codec for the next five years.
Honestly I get the strong sense we wouldn't even be having this discussion if Windows 10 was NOT free i.e. if it costs $100. Since then people would simply not feel compelled to upgrade, instead it is free for a limited period, so people feel compelled and are now complaining about being "forced" to.
The reality is you can use Windows 7 until 2020. Just go ahead and do that then.
Sure it is a choice. You absolutely need the DVD player...don't upgrade now. Maybe by the time you need it, the functionality will be restored. Regardless, it is a choice you can make. Don't be entitled.
The pricing is exactly the same, nor was the rationale ever to provide an edition for people who don't need a DVD player. You can still download and install those components freely after installing the OS.
The rationale for it was an anti-competition lawsuit brought by the EU.
The pricing may be the same, you may even be able to download the components, but the difference exists and there is choice to select something without.
They may have been forced to do it, but you are paying for a product WITH media player, same price or not.
It's not only that Microsoft removes the features, they also don't tell you clearly they'll remove them but they put almost "malware-like" request on your system for which you already paid to them to "just upgrade it's safe."
Note that the upgrade will remove your Windows built-in DVD player.
Windows 8.1 had no built in DVD player. Nor did Windows 7 Starter or Basic. Further, I suspect it's a feature that the vast majority of people have never used, exactly why Microsoft decided that they wouldn't subsidize the licensing for no reason. This is a very 2002 discussion.
Not that your point isn't valid -- at least for those users who ever actually tried playing a video DVD, and who had a supporting version of Windows -- it's just pretty odd that such a comment sits at the very top of an enormous technology event.
The Tesla doesn't come with a holder for my buggy whip.
As a user I have issues with Windows removing a built-in DVD player. I'm one of those dinosaurs who still watches his DVDs from his laptop. It was news to me and I appreciate that it was at the top.
But that's just the thing. They didn't remove it. I have literally never been able to play DVDs in Windows without installing third party codecs or programs.
> it's just pretty odd that such a comment sits at the very top of an enormous technology event.
What you call "an enormous technology event" I call a disaster, showing perfect "we don't care for the current users" attitude, even after the public demonstrated what it thinks about the "improvements" in Windows 8. The commenters here rightly point that the returned Start menu is even worse than it was during the tech preview. And I have actually paid for my copies of Ultimate and Pro with Media Center versions and I actually need the features I note are now quietly removed. It's your right that you don't need them, but I do need them and the people who consider installing 10 should know about it too.
Don't upgrade. You paid $0 for Windows 10, had absolutely no expectations about it when you apparently bought Windows 7, and now it's a "disaster" because an unused feature was openly and clearly removed. Give me a break.
This sort of "take a shit on everything" attitude is one of the worst facets of HN, and your comments in particular exemplify them. Don't upgrade. Move on.
VLC, in my experience, plays 90%+ of DVDs perfectly (actually better, since now everything is skippable and you get significantly more rendering options than any other player).
The few DVDs which malfunction are typically published by Disney in the last few years and contain DRM specifically designed to break unlicensed players. VLC have been very active in fixing these issues, and have in many cases.
But if people plan on using VLC just be aware that the rare DVD won't work well or at all. Still the best DVD playing software I've used, including paid software.
Really though, he does seem like a marketing puppet...
Because I question the importance of DVD playing ability relative to an enormous, free release? Give me a break.
I suppose this mean that you and acqq must work for Apple or Google or some other competitor that is trying to undermine Microsoft. By your logic, that is just as, if not more, rational.
Yep, Control Panel\All Control Panel Items\Back up and Restore (Windows 7)
Exact same old craptastic System Image backup stuff. Still can't only backup my C drive, got to include my TB's of bulk data on non-system drives too, grr.
The target drive on Windows 7 and 8 has to be at least the size of the previous one, which includes even the partitions which aren't copied. It seems nothing changed on 10 regarding that.
No, like I said, it's exactly the same. If it decides it's a system drive, you can't unselect it, and it's very easy to make something a "system drive" when it's really entirely non-critical (a drive with some games on it, for example).
I at least found the one tiny non-critical service I had installed from my downloads drive - a PS3 controller driver. Ironically having removed that, the drive in question is now impossible to include in a backup. WTF.
It's all very frustrating when you just want to make an image of a single drive.
They apparently (the twitter message isn't actually the company statement) plan to return it "sometime in the future" and "if it might be free or if it will cost" is TBA:
http://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-will-include-option...
The Media Player capabilities, if you have them in your Windows edition, will be for ever deleted. Just so.
Moreover, note that the upgrade can reduce the functionality of your notebook: Microsoft made the deal with the hardware producers about integrating hidden partitions to allow the recovery from the hard disk, but the upgrade process will just make sure that the Windows runs, not that your recovery from the hard disk functionality, managed by each hardware vendor independently (based on the recommendations from Microsoft) would be preserved.
I don't use the recovery mechanism, but I do use backup. When the recovery partitions aren't right, the built in backup (which was kept from Windows 7) doesn't work on Windows 8.1.
The same story happened with the transition from Windows 8 to Windows 8.1 (I have such a notebook).
Anybody knows if the "Windows 7" style full disk backup survived in Windows 10?