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Read This If You Hate Meetings (nytimes.com)
76 points by robg on July 28, 2009 | hide | past | favorite | 31 comments


I think the managers schedule would be better called the entrepreneurs schedule. The reason entrepreneurs spend a few hours every day helping other people with their projects is so that once a year they can call in 300 favors over a six week period.

I bet most people reading this could do all of Richard Branson's job, with the exception of about five minutes a day. The problem is that those five minutes are where he makes millions and millions of dollars. The reason he's able to do this is because whereas the average person knows about 200 people, he knows more like 10,000 people on a first name basis.

Don't get me wrong, being the maker is deeply satisfying, but 9 times out of 10 being the entrepreneur is more leveraged.


Well if you consider the "makers" magical 5 minute window of extreme insight that he or she might have specked throughout their half-days, it appears to me that it is just as significant as a Branson's. Branson's leverage comes mostly from his wealth, or at least is vastly improved by his wealth by a super-scaler factor. So a "(very) successful entrepreneur" can exert an (exaggiteriously)-greater "leverage" by the good fortunes of their wealth -- seems almost tautological.

(For those 5 minutes of the day, the maker might as well be printing off $1000 bills -- of actual value creation, and not some monetary-network optimization, a fish more fit to be fried by some super rich Bransonian-figure.)


Well right now Richard Branson's leverage comes from being Richard Branson, but I was talking about more when he was getting started.


Good point, I'm woefully ignorant of Branson's history of success; perhaps I'll meander through some wiki pages today.

I did liked the notion Stephen Dubner added. Namely that the two schedule types aren't necessarily mutual exclusive to a personality type -- some/(all) can modally switch between them (within reason). Perhaps the Entreprenuer's Schedule is really some personal-proprietary blend of both. (I would like to think Branson as a "maker" on some level or another.)


He started out selling records (as in, vinyl disks that stored audio data, crazy I know) at a market stall. That grew into a music publishing business and a chain of high street stores. He used that as his springboard into his other enterprises.

Stelios from Easyjet is an example of someone who made a small fortune in the airline business... By starting with a large fortune he inherited. Branson is a self-made man. His leverage is his mystique and his charisma.


"His leverage is his mystique and his charisma."

I haven't read his biographies, but I'd posit this is how it went (since this is the order it usually goes in):

1. RB takes on a few small projects and ships. Develops a reputation for delivering on his promises.

2. Uses this reputation to get money and resources for bigger projects. Meets lots and lots of people while doing these projects.

3. Is now seen as a leader, which makes him charismatic.

4. Spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to employ full-time voice acting and body language coaches, and further develops his personal brand and mystique.

Now that all this is done, what Richard Branson does for a living is to play Richard Branson. Do you think he actually wants to fly to Fiji and go rock climbing every weekend? Of course not. Most weekends he'd much rather curl up with a pot of tea and read the paper. But he can't; he has to go to Fiji, because that's what Richard Branson would do.


Necker Island is where he goes. Any maybe he just does drink tea and read the papers there, no-one knows, since he owns the place :-)


Chances are that a lot of the folks around here are both makers and managers. The contextual change between maker mode and manager mode however is enormously expensive. It's not dissimilar to a CPU context switch. However, meetings have the same effect on a maker that busy waiting has on a CPU. You just can't get anything done while you're waiting for the meeting to be over, something that is exacerbated by the knowledge that most meetings are unnecessary and a waste of time because they're poorly run.


Good heavens. Reading the NYT comments I'm surprised at how many people take issue with the choice of words- "maker" and "manager," or assume that pg was somehow trying to degrade one or the other. Sometimes I wonder if there's a secret contest going on somewhere on the web or something where the goal is to get offended (on record, with full name) at the most innocuous thing possible.

I suppose it means that the main points of the essay are holding up quite nicely, on the other hand.


People fill in blanks. It's silly and often wrong. But it can be right too. Contrasting makers & managers in that context with the other little clues hint at the pre agreed up division lines in a pre existing debate.

You could stir up the other side just as easily. Hint at a 'then find someone to make it for you' step in a process. Allude to engineers being replaceable or product ideas coming from marketing. Religious people can get very offended if you call a miracle supernatural.

It's easy to get people going when it's part of an existing debate.


I've encountered more than a few people who take issue with the "us programmers are special flowers, we need weird working hours and no interruptions" line (as they see it). Everyone else gets their job done under normal conditions; why can't the programmers? This may just be more of that.


I know that kind of person. I think every programmer does.

I don't know at which point one's value as an employee started being measured by one's tolerance for a distracting workplace. I always thought that the idea was to create conditions that allow for people to get as much done as possible.

Though it might not be possible to give people the schedules and conditions that they need all time, it is possible to improve matters a lot in most workplaces.


It's nice to see this essay being publicly exposed by a more mainstream news site.


Yes. Hopefully it will bring more makers to hn and scare the managers away.


I stopped linking to HN from essays several months ago. I don't want the community to grow too fast.


What's the traffic difference between your highest visited essays and HN?

I found YC and HN through your essays. I'm wondering if that's a more general phenomenon.


On an ordinary weekday, HN gets about 3x as many unique visitors as my site: 33k vs 11k. When a new essay is very popular, my traffic spikes up to 30 or 40k a day, or in rare cases over 50k.


Thanks! As a comparison, how's this essay looking today? I only saw the link because it was on the front page, but I think that's one of their most popular blogs. Is the NY Times as powerful as claimed in PR circles?


I don't know; Yahoo Store only updates stats once a day.

If I used Mixpanel (http://mixpanel.com) I could see stats in real time!


feel free to sign up =)


Agreed.

As much as I like the fact that ideas coming from this site are spreading, I would also like people to work at least as much as I did to find HN.

A direct link from the NYT would be way too easy.


Has the growth rate been fairly steady or has it increased as of late?


http://ycombinator.com/images/hntraffic.28jul09.png

Traffic spiked during applications and dipped at the beginning of summer, as it always does, but you can see there's secular growth mixed with the seasonal variation.


I knows it's fun and all to hate on managers, but they do perform a valuable function within an organization. If you're successful enough as an entrepreneur, it's almost guaranteed that you'll end up as one. Just because most people here identify more with the maker does not mean manager types should be disparaged.


Agreed. Any disparagement of managers was unintended.

I come here to mingle with fellow makers when I need a break from manager types. That's all.


In IT it seems that nearly all middle managers ended up in that job specifically to keep them from touching the systems or the codebase...


> Having read Paul Graham’s wise words — seriously, go read it already — I feel somewhat less guilty about being such a jerk during my “maker” periods.

I think pg makes some excellent points, but this is also why I mistrust his conclusions sometimes. Quite often, some dysfunction gets explained away as a trait of being creative. Seems a bit too easy. The NYTimes writer seems to be aware of this temptation as well.

There are lots of other reasons to hate meetings, and not all reflect so well on the 'makers'. Many meetings just waste time, of course. But programmers sometimes do need to be dragged to a table to commit to an estimate, make some difficult decision, or justify their progress. None of which is pleasant.

There's a lot of empirical studies showing that interruptions are pretty damaging to knowledge workers' productivity. I don't know of any study that shows an hour-long meeting really has to mess up the rest of your day, or that one cannot focus in small time increments. I know it's harder, and that I personally find it difficult, but to me this seems to be within the scope of human possibility. Something tells me that if it was literally a matter of life or death, I would find some way to be useful during a three-hour window.


The whole thing is a rather long winded way of saying that people working on complicated technical or craft problems need hours of uninterrupted time alone. This somewhat obvious point doesn't require pages of text.

"Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" made the research backed argument 30 years ago that to progress in drawing one needs large chunks of uninterrupted time when the linguistic centers of the brain remain unstimulated.


Here are some tips for those of us makers that are forced to be on a manager's schedule from time to time:

Meeting avoidance techniques

-Pickup the phone if an email thread gets longer than 3 emails. Long email threads are the carrots that dangle in front of a potential meeting coordinator. A phone call, while disruptive, can often clarify things better than any email could, and since you're checking email at the time you make the call, you probably weren't hacking (or at least in the zone) anyway.

-Status meetings are the professional equivalent of asking "are we there yet?" for the 50th time in sweltering heat. If you get called into a status meeting more than once a week, it is time to address it as a problem. Most managers you are dealing with are only concerned about two things: what you're doing and when you expect it to be done. Get good at demonstrating what you have done. Perhaps adopt a build schedule with each build having demonstrable qualities to it rather than things a manager cannot see/measure. Having a build and demonstrating it with a statement like "I refactored all my code so it's much easier to maintain" is wonderful, except to a manager who might second-guess that you did any work at all since nothing appears to have changed for you. Similarly, get good at tracking your time. You can only do this by actually tracking how much time you spend on things. There are good tools available to accomplish this, so do it. When you go to make future estimates, they may not be precise but at least they'll be a lot more accurate than simply guessing.

-Ever had two half-hour meetings scheduled over the course of a few days? Look at opportunities to defragment your schedule. If you have two meetings with the same person, see if you can combine them into one mega-meeting. If you have a meeting one afternoon with manager A, and a meeting the next morning with manager B, call them up and see if you can re-schedule the meeting. You have the same capacity file systems (schedules), but your block size is bigger than theirs and so you have fewer of them. A measly half hour meeting will take up one gigantic block of your schedule while it will only take up a small block in theirs. Thus, from a purely statistical point of view, the chances of having them say yes to a reschedule are quite high.

-If you are on a development team, create a designated hitter of meeting attendees. Take turns being the DH. Personally, I prefer to have one week where I'm stuck in manager mode rather than having to go into manager mode once a week. You'd be surprised how often the specific programmer responsible for a piece of code is actually needed at a meeting. Often they just need a technical person's opinion, and chances are that you can assert your team members' opinions for them. When it comes to schedule estimates, you probably have a rough idea of how quickly your teammates work and when pushed for an estimate, so as not to pressure them, you will probably sandbag your estimate more than if they were to ask the same of you. So it works out better anyway because you're building contingencies into your time estimates.

If you have to schedule meetings:

-Add a custom field to each business contact with their meeting time preference: "Morning", "Early Afternoon", "Late Afternoon", "Evening", etc.

-When you go to book meetings, try to book them all on one day, a task that will be made easier because you can preemptively suggest their preferred time.

If you run a meeting, do it well:

-Run your meeting like the Japanese railway system. Each invite should include the length of the meeting, an agenda, and what you will accomplish by meeting.

-The day before the meeting if it is in the morning (or several hours before hand if in the afternoon), send out a revised agenda and confirmation. Who knows, you may not have to attend the meeting, but at least you'll have a nice 3 hour window ahead of you before finding out. This means the day ahead is free!

-While at the meeting, keep track of the time and keep people focussed. You don't have to be a jerk, but gently guide people back on topic when they start talking about the weather.

-After the meeting, volunteer to send out the meeting minutes. This will ensure that all next-actions/deliverables are recorded and will minimize future interruptions by email/phone/further meetings.

-Chances are that your meetings are not run like the ones above if you're simply an attendee. If you are an employee, see if you can get your boss to sit in on meetings and be your delegate. If you are in an environment that will allow you to, introduce this kind of behaviour. Too many professionals simply aren't aware of how meetings should be run, so they do things in a sloppy manner.


Wow this is right on (PG and this author both). I particularly like this line (insert "product" or "release" in place of "book" and he's nailed my experience, particularly the gnawing part):

"A book is like a child who never naps, never goes to camp, always needs care and feeding, and whose presence gnaws on you if you dare neglect it."

I think it also hints at something else I'm grappling with. I work a lot and worry about what I'm working on even when I'm not working. I think this really impedes my ability to do creative things outside of work--I'm so gnawed upon by what I left at work that I have trouble pushing myself into working on other projects.


The original essay by pg: http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html

Very insightful, I enjoyed it.




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