I don't want to diminish the problem of existential depression in adults. I just want to point out that the problem is probably more accute and troublesome in gifted children as I think the author tried to explain.

I had exactly what was described in the article in response to a car accident (being hit while biking) that 'should have been fatal' at age 15.

The author's recommendation of a daily hug also resonates with me since if I had to describe, 15 years later, what happened I'd say that the accident caused my mind to retreat from my body and that it wasn't until I learnt to enjoy physical touch again 7 years later that I felt I had recovered.

While my experience probably was a bit more intense than the article describes, my guess is that it points to a failure mode in gifted (or let's say 'mentally oriented') children in which they focus on their mind to the exclusion of all else and lose track of their (physical) connection to the world.

There are two mechanisms to cope with this without discarding or distorting it. Both are linked to accepting and expanding the comical (and cosmic) smallness of our existences.

The first one I actually learned recently from reading Stephensons Anathem (which made me wonder if I'm reading that into his work or whether it was put in there from the same urge to cope). It's a bit hard to relay it without spoiling the book too much, but let's say it's related to the fact that even our understanding of the heat death of the universe is based on and limited by our human brains. There is hope in understanding it as a field that may still be ripe for discovery (top-of-my-head exmples: quantum immortality, parallel universes etc.) and that, as per usual, reality is always more fascinating, weird and grand than our brains can even begin to imagine. (And maybe these short term sprints of depression stem from being unable, for a short while, to muster an appropriate sense of wonder.) We're along for a ride and that ride is awesome.

While the first one is going one step ahead, the second is taking one step back: Even the fact that we are able to form thoughts about the heat death of the universe means that we are incredibly gifted and that it's a gift we should not waste on despair. We are part of a universe that is to all appearances without inherent meaning or even sense. Fine. It's up to you to decide whether you want to dwell in and facilitate the static and the cold, or whether you want to pump your energy into showering it with the most fantastic entropy that the universe hasn't seen yet. You are here because thousands of generations of humans have found ways to cope and carry on and make today into a better tomorrow. If they figured out a way to give a damn, you can, too.

> accepting ... reality is always more fascinating, weird and grand than our brains can even begin to imagine ... We're along for a ride and that ride is awesome.

Sounds like defeatism and resignation. Why resign yourself to the "ride" and pretend that there's something nice about the long, arduous journey when you know very well that there's not much to see at the destination, or if you believe that everyone is riding in the wrong direction?

> If they figured out a way to give a damn, you can, too.

Sounds like conformism. What if all those people gave lots of damns about things that actually aren't worth a damn? Perhaps we should not waste our precious CPU cycles on caring about worthless things.

How do you convince a mind that thinks on the scale of trillions of years to care about a few thousand years of human idiosyncrasy at all? I don't think it will be that easy. Daily hugs might actually work better, because a hug doesn't even attempt to engage the intellect and therefore doesn't need to respond to counterarguments.

Because I certainly don't know if these things are worth a damn or not, and I generally don't trust people who believe that they do know.

----------------------

But this uncertainty about whether "any specific thing matters" cuts both ways, and I'm not sure it is clearly stated in another part of your comment:

kijin>Sounds like defeatism and resignation. Why resign yourself to the "ride" and pretend that there's something nice about the long, arduous journey when you know very well that there's not much to see at the destination, or if you believe that everyone is riding in the wrong direction?

I think that there are 2 defeat/resignations in your hypothetical. The first defeat/resignation happens at the point where you become convinced that "you know very well that there's not much to see at the destination". The second defeat/resignation is the one that you pointed out, when you make the decision to pretend that here's some destination.

----------------------- skore>>it's related to the fact that even our understanding of the heat death of the universe is based on and limited by our human brains.

Skore is raising the question that maybe we DON'T "know very well that there's not much to see at the destination."

Some people believe that there is no way to know that "there is not much to see at the destination", and some people believe that there definitely is a worthwhile destination that is worth struggling towards. Religious people, anyone believing in transhumanism or "the singularity" to name the vast majority of humans.

Some people would lump everyone who doesn't commit suicide into this category: "If you aren't getting off the train, you're moving towards station."

Existential despair is when your brain decides to think up some Profound Issue instead of just admitting it needs some exercise and a hug.

Personally, I find the heat death of the universe comforting. That is, considering human society as it is now: no matter what, there will be no boot stamping on a human face forever. Those who "become one with the dust" cannot loose, those into accumulation of power and posessions can't win. That's kinda neat, after all, like a fail-safe. It's also the only real solid argument for things like compassion and irony I know.

You are here because thousands of generations of humans have found ways to cope and carry on and make today into a better tomorrow.

You could also say I'm here because hunger feels bad and fucking feels good. "Better tomorrow" sounds so self-righteous, and while maybe people in the past were that high-minded, I'm currently not seeing it. The US can't even close Gitmo because the people they abducted and tortured might take it out on them, wtf? We still live in the stone age in so many ways, and that's the supposedly advanced west. A few years ago in Germany, a girl was raped in the inner city of a small town while people just walked by. And so on. It could be argued that even one look at a flower justifies all suffering in the world, but it could also be argued that just one kid dying in terror and pain does not justify existence of life on the planet. It really depends on the mood, and for me on wether I had breakfast yet.

Remember when TV was thought to bring culture and information to people? Hah, me neither, but I take it there was a time when you could express such hope with a straight face. Then came the internet... yet the way 99% of the people talk on the web would get one hellbanned within 5 posts here. For every person with a book I see, I see 20 with their dumbification phone out. In the economy we consider shifting money to those who least deserve, but most desperately want it, as making money and admirable, and watch helplessly as our media, our food, just about fucking everything gets more and more consolidated into fewer and fewer trees of corporations and the corporations they own. All most people care about is what they need to do to get along, they just accept everything as given and go from there.

And yeah, then there's the people dreaming of actual immortality in all this mess. Just look at them. They've been creeping me out since I was a kid, not once have I seen a scientist talk about this who seemed to be a balanced human being.

Anyway, as Kafka wrote in his notebook, "Believing in progress does not mean believing that any progress has yet been made." But then again he also wrote this: "You can hold yourself back from the sufferings of the world, that is something you are free to do and it accords with your nature, but perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could avoid."

But that's not what you're talking about, children dying in Africa, is it? Or people who just want to feel like they have some agency in their life playing Farmville? No, the universe is oh so exiting, it's an awesome ride... bleh. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes still stare at clouds or my hand or whatever and am simply amazed. But a sense of wonder is only one part of the story, the other part is human society, which is nowhere near the awesome complex miracle the universe is, but often rather banal, predictable, suicidal on good days and murderous on bad ones, with ads everywhere, just in case someone has an actual thought in a quiet minute.

I still agree that one should not give up, if that can be avoided. But I disagree that "if they figured out a way to give a damn, you can, too." -- so many people didn't figure anything out (how many natives are basically dying from depression in reservations?), and if they couldn't, why should I be able to? We live on a planet where Stalin and Hitler and Mao actually happened, where the US is actually a thing, and where there is no reason to believe power, control and deception will not be absolute and insubvertible one day -- until the heat death of the universe, that is.

People who don't give up do that for themselves; they don't don't owe it to anyone. Maybe to the people who love them, maybe to themselves, but not to any old random schmuck of the past. I think there is no logical argument you could make for why people "have" to be happy and not just mope or become criminals, and hugs are really as good as it gets.

  When people no longer fear the power of government,
  a far greater empowerment appears,
  the Great Integrity,
  which never needs to enforce itself.

  Then, we will never again be driven from our homes
  or be compelled to labor for the benefit of others.
  We will all work naturally to fulfill ourselves,
  and to meet our community needs.

  In the Great Integrity,
  we will all love ourselves and all others,
  not as compensations for ego deprivations and defilements,
  but as natural expressions of our humanity.

"work naturally to fulfill ourselves", or "ego deprivations and defilements", those are very few words for a whole lot of issues. When I was younger I was scared out of my wits of the idea that we might lock ourselves into them via technology without even realizing it, and now I do find consolation in two facts, that even if we do, it won't be forever, and that if we manage to get out of the solar system, given enough distance, at least diversity might once again flourish, that the dice will be rolled again so to speak, and more than once.

Actually, I think you were more on target than not, as it is very difficult to delink the two. The article discusses frustration about society or the "less-than-ideal" state of things as some of the preconditions leading up to the existential depression that some gifted kids experience.

Sure, there remain issues of our smallness, purpose, etc. However, I have often wondered what the Laozi quote you referenced crystallizes so well: what if we weren't all induced to participate in this "Matrix" of a society that pushes many of us into a life of subsistence while others profit from our efforts? What if instead we were more community than competitors and were more free to pursue what fulfills us and betters humankind? Would we feel as small and hopeless? Or would we be empowered and enlightened by our hand in creating and participating in a just society? And would the discoveries and progress that ensue as a result of so much effort and brainpower dedicated to causes other than personal economic benefit actually offset at least some of our sense of lostness and insignificance? That is, would we be more evolved and literally more significant or aware of our significance? Perhaps we humans are actually far, far more powerful and significant than any of us presently realize.

The world's resources would surely support such an arrangement if our mechanisms for allocating them were more evolved than "mere economics".

Surely, when gifted kids have such thoughts but are instead forced headlong into the Matrix, the temptation towards a more hopeless state and subsequent existential depression becomes highly possible if not probable.

Interestingly, besides that verse, Kohelet was considered too depressing for the Judaic Sages to canonize.

But neither is there a reason to believe they will be. If the universe has no teleology, that means it does not inevitably tend towards evil.

Yes, I agree with that, I just didn't know how to put it.

But still, the idea of complete autocratic slavery for a million years is such a bad scenario for me, that even just a small likelihood would be enough for me to welcome the fact that nothing lasts forever. Having that idea in a world where chickens are stuffed into dark rooms and have their beaks singed off so they don't peck each other to death doesn't help.

Maybe the universe doesn't tend towards evil, but power sure does. And newborns don't change; that is, humans get born as blank slates, but are faced with and molded by structures that can be arbitrarily old, complex and twisted. We no longer know what our parents know by the time we're 10; most of us wouldn't find out half of what is going on if we lived to be 1000. And it really only takes one sufficiently isolated generation to rewrite history into anything you want. And those who would want to do that, will make sure it's nasty and sticky. That doesn't mean it will come to that, but it really only takes one singularity event, doesn't it. So if it came to that, chances might be good it will not come to anything else ever again.

The Roman Empire didn't collapse because they thought "let's do something else instead, this is really petty and dumb", but because there was an outside, and because communication got slow as it grew in size. That communication changed a lot is obvious, and I would argue if you consider it from a class perspective, not from a nation perspective, there is no outside either, it's one huge blob. There may be an "outer lower class", but plenty of it identifies with and loves big brother dearly, and when push comes to shove, you don't really need that many faithful, you don't even need the smartest, they just need to be really dedicated and obedient and have the best weapons money can buy. And then there is robotics. I really fear that in a few hundred years tops it'll be _over_, if we keep on sleepwalking like we do.

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, and surely I read and watched too much dystopian science fiction; but I kinda think the reason we don't live on conveyor belts in a world made out of cast iron is because we're still building that world; but not because that's not exactly the world power wants, must want. Of course, such a blind lust for power is also by definition lacking in awareness, if not to say stupid. So there's that hope always, too, that it might trip over itself.

Well, it's like a hug, having someone that really sees you and shares your feelings. :)

You said you've read a lot of existentialist literature so this might be redundant, but I'd check out Haruki Murakami's work if you haven't already: I can't think of an author who more immerses in -- and emerges from -- a sense of cosmic loneliness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_no_aware

edit: to answer your question, I suggest The Wind Up Bird Chronicle. Murakami is overrated. Once you've read that one, you've essentially read them all.

"The tendency for entropy to increase in isolated systems is expressed in the second law of thermodynamics — perhaps the most pessimistic and amoral formulation in all human thought."

— Gregory Hill and Kerry Thornley, Principia Discordia [1]

As I understand, over the centuries, the usual coping mechanism for existential dread has been belief. Religion is often cynically thought to be a means to control the masses, but I think its central purpose is serving as a mental safety valve. I've chosen to believe in the power of technological progress.

"Yes, we did it, we killed the dragon today. But damn, why did we start so late? This could have been done five, maybe ten years ago! Millions of people wouldn't have had to die."

— Nick Bostrom, The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant [2]

I believe it's our duty to conquer death and bring heaven to earth, by fixing aging and developing machine intelligence. [3] [4] Once this is done, there will be time to think about reversing entropy, or breaking out of the universe.

"THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

— Isaac Asimov, The Last Question [5]

[1] http://principiadiscordia.com/

[2] http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html

[3] http://www.sens.org/

[4] http://intelligence.org/

[5] http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

    I believe it's our duty to conquer death and bring 
    heaven to earth, by fixing aging and developing machine 
    intelligence. [3] [4] Once this is done, there will be 
    time to think about reversing entropy, or breaking out 
    of the universe.

The author gave a quick nod to the fact that it exists in adults in the form of things like mid-life crises, however, suggested that adults have a much better framework for dealing with it. I tend to agree with him, however, like you, I also found much of the author's advice applicable.

I also believe that as we get older, we understand that there are so many others out there with whom we might relate. In our teen years, it seems that all the world is monolithic and that there is only on acceptable way to "be". It is also a time when we are constantly smacking up the pressure to conform. In some ways, this reminds me of what we know of gay kids struggling with their sexuality. Many face feelings of isolation and despair. A key message to them from adult members of the community has been "Hold on. It gets better".

With regard to what you write about "cosmic despair", and especially with concepts like "having a hard time coming back down to you", I noticed that some of it seems to flirt around the edges of depersonalization. Perhaps it may be worth having a look at that and how it intersects with your experiences.

[1] http://nickdesaulniers.github.io/blog/2013/04/29/the-persist...

Years later I've found out that I'm clinically depressed and perhaps that's why I don't feel the sadness so deeply - it's not much lower than my mood set point. BTW, comparing this feeling to the sadness of a close being passing away is like apples and oranges - they both have a completely different flavor to me.

I still invoke it from time to time; for the serenity, sometimes for the detachment, and oddly, sometimes get sad to get angry and gain some motivation to change the world. I've found that attaining the state is now harder than it was when I was a child.

BTW, interesting tip about the poetry; I've been wondering why it's not as alluring as it used to be, and perhaps I don't spacetime out that often anymore.

Has a bit different effect on me. Somewhat like going ‘one level up’ per your literary example. The troubled character is myself—but Cosmic Sadness elevates me (other part of me? complicated!), giving an odd feeling of unreality and remoteness.

The Sadness, indeed, comes from the inability to move up completely. Continuing the analogy, you remember that the novel is not real, but you're trapped in its reality.

Myself, I treasure these moments, they are calming and meditative, and happen very rarely to me. I wish I could trigger them voluntarily.

Not odd at all. The concentration or severity of existential depression in gifted children is well documented if not well known. And Jim Webb, the author, has devoted a good deal of his life (30+ years) to understanding the needs of and helping the gifted, with a focus on gifted children [1]. He also founded SENG (Supporting Emotional Needs of the Gifted) [2].

[1] http://www.greatpotentialpress.com/authors/james-t-webb-ph-d...

[2] http://www.sengifted.org/

Where is there any evidence WHATEVER that the severity of existential depression is any different for gifted people than it is for anybody else? I know Jim Webb, and I'm pickled in the writings of the gifted education movement. (I'll be spending the following two weeks presenting parent seminars on gifted education at Epsilon Camp 2013, so I keep up with all the latest literature on this subject.) I think "existential depression" is a euphemism used for "depression" among some but fortunately not all families who have gifted children--nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else.

Yes, it is crucial to help people who feel depressed, and I applaud anyone on HN who does so when depression comes up in submitted stories or comment threads from time to time. But I see utterly no evidence in the professional literature on depression that the manifestation of depression is much different in gifted people from its manifestation in all other human beings. Everyone who experiences depression needs to feel connected with fellow human beings who show compassion.

浣花流水水西头， 主人为卜林塘幽。 已知出郭少尘事， 更有澄江销客愁。 无数蜻蜓齐上下， 一双鸂鶒对沉浮。 东行万里堪乘兴， 须向山阴上小舟。

[edit] The English translation is excellent.