"But look, the point is this: the definition of a poor diet is a diet that doesn't provide for all of the necessary nutrients as part of the diet. If you have to take supplements to make up for dietary shortfalls, your diet is a poor one...period. Waiving away the handful of supplements you take everyday is madness and a serious problem."
That's simply your opinion. You're obsessed with the evils of supplements. Who cares if you need a couple of supplements to make up for some known shortfalls? It's a trivial part of my day, and it's hardly a "handful of supplements". Besides, consuming animal products has its own set of drawbacks.
I'm not sure why the vegans you know are so concerned about iron and zinc. I'm deficient in neither and don't go out of my way to supplement them. They're readily available in many plant foods. I'm also well aware that vitamin D is produced in skin, but you might want to double check your latitude if you're relying on that in the winter.
My goal is not to get 100% of my dietary requirements from food. That's apparently your objective. I never claimed a vegan diet can provide all the nutrients you need without supplementation. I readily admit you have to take B12. Some other things might be good to supplement too, depending on the actual make up of your diet. This is true even if you are omnivorous.
This whole thread started because you made this claim: "Non-animal sourced diets are hopelessly unhealthy in the long term no matter how many supplements you take to try and take to make up for it"
And now you've added:
"Vegans are among the only otherwise healthy population group in the developed world that routinely suffers from illnesses seen only in the most decrepit poverty stricken parts of the undeveloped world."
Please cite something specific to support either of those claims. "Google it" is not a citation. I know a lot of long term vegans (multiple decades; some lifelong) who are doing just fine.
If anyone else is still following this thread, this is a good source of information for vegans who want to be healthy: http://veganhealth.org
Yes, if anybody is still on this thread, and you want to go vegan, or are currently practicing, please please please, read the relevant appropriate scientific literature and don't just rely on vegan promotional sites like veganhealth.org (which makes several of the dietary mistakes I noted earlier in the thread).
Don't rely on opinion, tips at Whole Foods, friends, the internet, vegan pamphlets, support groups or only promotional websites. For example, veganhealth.org (run by dietition Jack Norris) makes an good effort at being a good guide - Jack does a pretty good job of distilling lots of the hard stuff into digestible chunks (forgive the pun). But it's subject to the exact same pitfalls and hopeful thinking (a bit of ground flaxseed on toast will solve all your omega problems!) I've seen in dozens upon dozens of vegan promotional dietary guides.
Once you've decided to go vegan, you've made the jump to accepting that you will be eating an inadequate diet to start with. (Simple logic dictates that if you need supplements to fix gaps in your diet, it's inadequate in those areas). Maintaining proper nutrition and health is unbelievably complicated when you're starting at such a disadvantage.
See a doctor regularly and demand the appropriate blood tests that test for the specific dietary deficiencies that are normal on a vegan diet. Don't rely on a typical blood panel...which is designed for people on omnivorous diets -- diets for which almost all of the vegan dietary deficiencies simply don't occur. If you don't know what the tests are, it's time to start your research!
That's simply your opinion. You're obsessed with the evils of supplements. Who cares if you need a couple of supplements to make up for some known shortfalls? It's a trivial part of my day, and it's hardly a "handful of supplements". Besides, consuming animal products has its own set of drawbacks.
I'm not sure why the vegans you know are so concerned about iron and zinc. I'm deficient in neither and don't go out of my way to supplement them. They're readily available in many plant foods. I'm also well aware that vitamin D is produced in skin, but you might want to double check your latitude if you're relying on that in the winter.
My goal is not to get 100% of my dietary requirements from food. That's apparently your objective. I never claimed a vegan diet can provide all the nutrients you need without supplementation. I readily admit you have to take B12. Some other things might be good to supplement too, depending on the actual make up of your diet. This is true even if you are omnivorous.
This whole thread started because you made this claim: "Non-animal sourced diets are hopelessly unhealthy in the long term no matter how many supplements you take to try and take to make up for it"
And now you've added:
"Vegans are among the only otherwise healthy population group in the developed world that routinely suffers from illnesses seen only in the most decrepit poverty stricken parts of the undeveloped world."
Please cite something specific to support either of those claims. "Google it" is not a citation. I know a lot of long term vegans (multiple decades; some lifelong) who are doing just fine.
If anyone else is still following this thread, this is a good source of information for vegans who want to be healthy: http://veganhealth.org