Do you think the board will push Elon out, or will the company just collapse when it can't raise cash?
I kinda want to buy a used Tesla now while they're cheap and stash it in the garage until this blows over. But I need it to keep getting software support.
Tesla's 2024 Free Cash Flow was roughly $3.5 billion. Other than BYD, they're still the only company I'm aware of that can profitably sell an EV. So, raising cash might not be a near-term pressure point.
The board's historically comped Elon on revenues, net income and stock price -- all those aren't that great compared with highs in the last five years. They are, however, astronomical compared to where Tesla was when they gave him his 'crazy' incentive stock plan. I imagine the board is probably repeatedly asking him to settle down, lower the drug intake and ... please don't make things worse bro. Maybe in stronger language than that. And, I'm sure if they think Tesla would be better off without Elon they'll work hard to make that happen. Right now, though is sort of peak anti-Elon sentiment in the public, making it harder to parse out what's helpful / where he's impacting his companies on the non-public side.
Without a strong theory for why anti-Elon sentiment can't get worse, it's quite plausible we haven't actually hit the "peak" of it.
Personally I think it quite likely that Musk will catch significant blame for whatever bad things related to American government happen in the coming year, deserved or otherwise.
That's always been the catch for me; its an always-on remotely controlled camera-mobile, of which you happen to sit in the drivers seat and pretend you own while it drives you around dangerously.
Simply being always-online and sending telemetry, doesnt preclude the ability to remotely intercede in the car's operations.
I think there's precedent with the OnStar system in other cars, and there has anecdotally been evidence of various systems being operable by some kind of admin terminal.
I think "summon mode" is actually a great demonstration of how you can remotely access and do some form of piloting the car without a driver. There's also the disabling of features remotely on resale, and probably other examples.
Into the infotainment unit. I guess it's a question of your definition of "remote control". In the context of a car, I'd think that more than being able to change the aircon or turn up the volume.
Dude sieg-heiled twice on stage. He needs to have no connection, including stock, and they need a rebrand, before I’d consider them. The T logo is a swastika now, and I would’ve drive around with one of those on my car.
This is clearly misinformation, and repeating it won’t make it true.
He said «my heart goes out to you». Without a video of him saying that nobody would have blinked an eye at the contents of what he said. You know, content, the thing Martin Luther King said we should judge people by.
This is a pretty bad problem (or «strategy») with the modern left. They imagine something into existence, either now, or more commonly in a vague future.
They then base their political platform on these imagined or assumed things. They do this all the time.
The Elon nazi thing is probably the most extreme and obvious case I’ve seen of this, and I’m honestly shocked to see the amount of people taking it seriously.
The left should, like Bill Maher recently said, focus on providing a viable alternative instead of trying to see who can act the most unhinged.
Not OP, but how about "remigration" of many people, but among them German citizens, "back" to their countries of origin, voluntary or otherwise?
Their members have been making statements like, the Nazis weren't all that bad, a number of them were found to be parroting Nazi talking points, or quoting verbatim.
Germany is facing enormous stability problems unless it does something radical, not to mention total cultural erasure. Remigration sounds good even reasonable, within reason.
I hope we can agree this is clearly not about genocide? In this regard the Nazi-comparison seems weird.
The original goal of the Nazi concentration camps was relocating ethnic groups to help stabilize Germany and protect its culture. Your viewpoints are indistinguishable from those of a pro-Hitler German in the lead up to world war two.
Hitler didn't start with genocidal ideas either, it was "remigration" under a different name too.
DW has a nice little selection of quotes from senior AdD politicians. Some are simply about hostility to the EU but many are about violence against migrants: https://www.dw.com/en/afd-leaders-and-their-most-offensive-r... one select about shooting or gassing, whichever is more convenient, from their now former press officer. Another highlights that AfD uses some Nazi newspeak, on racial dilution.
They're pro-Israel, not pro-Jewish-people-in-Germany.
The AfD leadership is full of people who used to be openly neo-Nazi. The party blames immigrants, foreigners and ethnic minorities for virtually every problem in Germany. This is the kind of movement that instinctively sends a chill down most Jewish people's spines. Xenophobic, racist, crude political movements have historically been bad for Jews.
Wow, I didn't have this on my bingo card for today, but this has got to be the most full-throated, impassioned defense and downplaying of an obvious Nazi salute I've ever read in my life.
I tell ya what. Instead of trying to convince you of what you're wishing to be not true, try this: Pull up the video of the gesture he made, practice it at home, make sure you can duplicate it perfectly, and then go into work and do it in front of each person you meet, and come back here and tell us what happens.
Nah. Not misinformation. Just other people aren't willing to give him the massive benefit of the doubt that you are. There's no point arguing with you about it, of course. But in context, watching the full video, seeing his opinions expressed on Twitter... surely you can see how people can come to the conclusion that they have.
For you to act like it's 100% definitely misinformation rather than a judgement call is disingenuous to the extreme.
> For you to act like it's 100% definitely misinformation rather than a judgement call is disingenuous to the extreme.
I’ll go on the unpopular limb and say that anyone seriously considering the fact that any mainstream persona intentionally did a «Nazi» thing has been consuming too much traditional, commercial media who almost by definition thrives on controversy and clicks. Their core interest is not in facts or honest reporting.
I don’t think HN is the most appropriate place for such discussions, but if anyone seriously wants to accuse Elon Musk of being a «Nazi», I would kindly request that they first define what they mean by that word in 2025, because to me that is honestly not very obvious.
He’s pro Israel and want less government regulation. I’m no expert, but to me that seems anti-Nazi?
I consume very little "traditional media." I haven't forgiven most traditional media for the coverage leading up to the Iraq War and adjusted my reading accordingly going on 20 years now. Cable news was always horrible and I stopped watching it well before then. My opinion is entirely based on the video, Musk's own words on Twitter, and his other actions. I simply don't believe you are genuine here and won't continue the conversation.
> He’s pro Israel and want less government regulation. I’m no expert, but to me that seems anti-Nazi?
Elon obviously does not tick off every box for "Nazi", but he gets so many that a lot of people are understandably horrified.
The salute was, physically, a Nazi salute - as any video comparison clearly shows. And he did it twice. Maybe he didn't "mean" it - maybe it was ironic, maybe it was for kicks, but it obviously was one.
Add to that his support for far-right parties around the world. That includes Germany, and, yes, Israel - while historic Nazis were antisemites, but some far-right people today find common ground with the far-right in Israel, which is exactly who is in power there now.
And Elon is allied with Trump, who got elected after a campaign in which he demonized immigrants as "poisoning the blood" of the nation, said that (legal!) immigrants were "eating the cats and the dogs", etc. etc. Those are classic lines from far-right, fascist governments. Demonizing gay and trans people as well, and Elon has done plenty of that himself.
So, is Elon just "far-right" and not "Nazi"? I'm not sure it's worth debating the difference. Obviously literal card-carrying Nazis are in the past, but the overlap between the modern far-right and historical fascism is enormous.
You’d be surprised on the Israel thing. There are not-small sections of white supremacy and neo-Nazism who see Israel as the realization of the kind of ethnostate they think should be the norm. “Yes, hooray Israel! All the Jews we want to expel should go over there! It’s a model state!”
To the rest of this, playing with Nazi shit to “trigger the libs” is a whole thing on the right, and I 100% think it’s what Elon was doing (and why we’ve seen more of it since, from others). The other explanations are bizarre (what the fuck is “my heart goes out to you”? The closest thing I can think of to that sort of gesture doesn’t risk this kind of confusion) and this kind of “trolling” is read as absolutely serious and a show of support by the worst elements of the right.
For my part, play with Nazi shit, you’re a Nazi, and so’s anyone who keeps associating with you. Most of the right didn’t run away from this, so we’ve got a pretty serious Nazi problem now.
> Most of the right didn’t run away from this, so we’ve got a pretty serious Nazi problem now
I appreciate the honest response, I really do.
But right here is where I’ll have to go back to my original comment about imagining problems.
You imagine he did something Nazi like. You imagined there are big swaths of right wing people supporting this imagined Nazi act. You imagine a big Nazi problem.
And it could be all in your head.
Listen to Bill Maher: Focus on becoming a viable alternative, rather than chasing crazy things. The world can only benefit from more viable options at the next election.
If this were literally the only issue, idk, maybe? But there’s also the broader plan they’re implementing, and the normalization of wildly illegal action from the executive. It’s authoritarianism top to bottom, and they said exactly what they’re aiming to do.
I’m focusing on a lot of things, and the fact that Nazi salutes (it’s on video! He did it twice! Watch that again and tell me what would look different if that were in-fact what he’s doing. What the hell gesture even looks close to what he does, if not that? I find the denial of what we can all plainly see shocking, similar to attempts to deny what happened on January 6th which we watched live) are now “eh, it’s fine” for the Republican Party is not nothing.
Like we’re a multifaceted coup attempt and an “if I lose to Hillary, the 2nd amendment folks can do something about it” in, and we’re in the middle of “shock and awe” (their words) against the government bureaucracy, firing of the people charged with preventing much worse and who did prevent that last time (IGs, generals), 40ish days out from the publicly stated deadline for agency reports on whether Trump should invoke the insurrection act, and the richest dude in the world Nazi salutes on stage twice and people are still going “IDK”. Gimme a fucking break.
But yes the actual problem is I can tell what kind of gesture he very obviously made and find it repugnant. That’s the problem. Not that all the above is going on and people are still entertaining “he just meant ‘my heart goes out to you’, which one expresses with a firm grimace, a slap to the chest and quick extension of the arm, fucking exactly like a Nazi salute” as if it’s not obvious bullshit.
Dude it’s on video. We can just watch it. This wasn’t an innocent gesture caught in an awkward still, it’s on video. I get that it’s also on video that he looked high as a kite at the event, but most people manage not to nazi salute when high, too.
Elon seems really unhinged, and there's so much to criticize without reaching for inflammatory labels.
I don't understand the gesture. It's not something I see myself ever doing. But here's Tim Walz doing the exact same thing on video. Evidence of secret NSDAP membership?
If this looks like the "exact same thing" Elon Musk did, have your eyes checked. Seriously. I literally clicked the link, spent 5 seconds, and it's a totally different gesture...?
That’s pretty weird but that’s also not what Elon did. I just re-watched his in case my memory was faulty, and no, it’s simply a Nazi salute, straight-up.
I find the concept that the left is pulling this nazi stuff of their ass to a bad problem with anyone out there defending it. If someone accused me of giving a nazi salute, and then the nazis high five each other in the internet, I’d be releasing a statements that this was a complete misunderstanding. Nazi’s are losers and can fuck off.
Then there wouldn’t even be room for this. But the man keeps finding himself questionable close to nazi adjacent shit far too often. It might be for lulz, but don’t be surprised when consumers back off your products.
Don’t be so damned gullible. These shitheads thrive on doing reprehensible stuff, and then giving it a stupid cover story so people like you go out and defend them for free.
It was a “haha only serious” Nazi salute. It’s not “unhinged” to see what’s plainly visible.
Kind of funny how similar Musk and Hitler really are. If the board of Tesla ditched Musk instead of giving him 50 billion dollars, the company might have saved face. But no. I'm seeing a lot of "we bought this before we knew Elon was crazy" bumper stickers lately, as well as a few aquaintances trying to sell their Teslas and the stock they have in the company. Tesla's days are numbered, unless Musk forces the US government to buy them, which he probably will do.
it is, and for moral reasons i wouldn't buy one new.
but i've had the same thought as parent. if the 2nd hand market really dips, i'm not going to let dirty looks from strangers get in the way of a smart economic & ecological move for me
What is your basis for this? This sounds like rubbish. I would imagine the car would function as well as any other manufactuter who runs their own entertainment system - some hosted features might fail, but the car itself will continue to run fine.
You ever get software updates for legacy software? Not really right? The term is abandonware. In the video game market what they do is hand off the dead games to some Chinese company that milks a few more DLCs/cashshops out of it (this re-release is effectively a pump and dump IPO). Then they pack it up and shut the game down.
The timeline would like this for a Tesla owner:
- Tesla goes bankrupt
- Some Chinese company takes up the upkeep of the software
- They introduce ads similar to Jeep
- No core functionality or QoL improvements are made
- Abandonware, no real software updates
- Your car runs fine, but you paid for a car with a computer in it, and the business basically repossessed the computer part of it. So, if that's possible, it's better to avoid.
If key functionality changes, I have a right to refund under Austalian consumer law. If the new owners refused to comply, they'd end up being barred from trading in Australia.
Regardless - even in this fairly far fetched reality - as you said the "car runs fine", but the GO was refering to the car "ceasing to function".
I don’t need updates, so step three is where I disconnect the car and keep driving it like that. There haven’t been any significant updates to the software in the past couple of years anyway, outside of FSD.
I kinda want to buy a used Tesla now while they're cheap and stash it in the garage until this blows over. But I need it to keep getting software support.