If you watch that YouTube link, you'll see the same guy Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust". I think he apologised for this flagrant comment, but this email shows he hasn't changed his behaviour in the slightest.
His email seems very reasonable to me (the thin-blue-line comment is a bit weird though). To me the problem are that some Rust people seem to expect that the Linux maintainers (that put in a tremendous amount of work) just have to go out of their way to help them achieve their goals - even if the maintainers are not themselves convinced about it and later have to carry the burden.
How many times will this need to be said: the Rust maintainers have committed to handling all maintenance of Rust code, and handling all breakage of their code by changes on the C side. The only "burden" the C maintainers have to carry is to CC a couple of extra people on commits when APIs change.
> Then I think we need a clear statement from Linus how he will be working. If he is build testing rust or not.
> Without that I don't think the Rust team should be saying "any changes on the C side rests entirely on the Rust side's shoulders".
> It is clearly not the process if Linus is build testing rust and rejecting PRs that fail to build.
For clarity, tree-wide fixes for C in the kernel are automated via Coccinelle. Coccinelle for Rust is constantly unstable and broken which is why manual fixes are required. Does this help to explain the burden that C developers are facing because of Rust and how it is in addition to their existing workloads?
> For clarity, tree-wide fixes for C in the kernel are automated via Coccinelle. Coccinelle for Rust is constantly unstable and broken which is why manual fixes are required. Does this help to explain the burden that C developers are facing because of Rust and how it is in addition to their existing workloads?
Yes actually, I really wish someone would bring that sort of thing to the forefront, because that's a great spot to welcome new contributors.
They've said that, but nobody believes them, and can you blame them given we JUST saw another big rust maintainer resign?
I'd be suspicious these guys aren't in it for the long haul if they don't get their way and will leave the Rust they shoved in the kernel to bit rot if things don't go their way w.r.t enough rust adoption fast enough. "If you don't let us add even more rust, we will resign from the project and leave you to maintain the rust that's already there and that we added, and that you said you didn't want to add because you didn't trust us to not resign".
Rust 4 Linux people just proving the points of the maintainers scared of abandonment.
The rust 4 Linux people unfortunarely give the impression of caring more about rust than about the kernel, and it's clear that many are willing to make that perfectly clear by abandoning the larger project.
The whole thing needs to be scrapped and rethought with better and more committed leadership. This past 6 months to a year has been embarrassing and done nothing but confirm the fears of anti rust people.
> However, exceptionally, for Rust, a subsystem may allow to temporarily break Rust code. The intention is to facilitate friendly adoption of Rust in a subsystem without introducing a burden to existing maintainers who may be working on urgent fixes for the C side. The breakage should nevertheless be fixed as soon as possible, ideally before the breakage reaches Linus.
Yes, "breakage should be fixed as soon as possible". Not "Rust for Linux team will fix the breakage as soon as possible".
The exception is allowing the subsystem to break Rust code temporarily. If you accept a patch in C that breaks Rust code, and the Rust for Linux team doesn't fix it quickly enough, you either need to fix the Rust code yourself, remove it, or re-write it in C. All of this would take time and energy from all the non-R4L kernel devs.
This is why people are reluctant to accept too much mixing of the C and Rust codebases, because even the Rust for Linux team isn't promising to fix breakages in Rust for Linux code.
Just to be clear, this is the situation. A rando submits a C patch that breaks Rust code, a maintainer accepts this patch and then demands that the R4L devs fix the breakage introduced by someone else and reviewed by themselves. The rando who broke the thing isn't around, and the person who reviewed the change takes no responsibility.
Have I gotten that right?
And then you're presenting this situation as "the Rust for Linux team isn't promising to fix breakages in Rust for Linux code". Somewhat disingenuous.
To say Rust won't cause extra work for C developers, this is exactly what people are claiming. This is from the comment I originally replied to.
> The Rust maintainers have committed to handling all maintenance of Rust code, and handling all breakage of their code by changes on the C side. The only "burden" the C maintainers have to carry is to CC a couple of extra people on commits when APIs change.
But this is not actually true it seems. Even the Rust for Linux policy doesn't say this. But because of the incorrect statement that keeps getting repeated, people are calling Kernel devs unreasonable for being reluctant to Rust patches.
> A rando submits a C patch that breaks Rust code, a maintainer accepts this patch and then demands that the R4L devs fix the breakage introduced by someone else and reviewed by themselves. The rando who broke the thing isn't around, and the person who reviewed the change takes no responsibility.
Well, firstly, "randos" aren't getting their patches easily accepted anyway.
And secondly, what's the problem with this? You want one of the following options:
1. Everyone who wants to submit a patch also be proficient in Rust,
Or
2. You want the reviewer to also be proficient in Rust
You don't think that's an unnecessary burden for the existing maintainers?
The burden should be on the people who want to introduce the second language.
This is not how the kernel works. You cannot rely on someone's "commitment" or "promise". Kernel maintainers was to have very good control over the kernel and they want strong separation of concern. As long as this is not delivered, it will be very hard to accept the Rust changes.
At some level this is just concern trolling. There is nothing the Rust developers could possibly do or say that would alleviate the concern you've just expressed. You are asking for something that is impossible.
What could they possibly "deliver" beyond a strong commitment to fix the code in a timely manner themselves?
It is not concern trolling. It is a harsh disagreement.
Some kernel developers really do feel that any Rust in the kernel will eventually mean that Rust gets accepted as a kernel language, and that they will eventually have to support it, and they the only way to prevent this is to stop any Rust development right now.
And yes, there's nothing that the R4L group can offer to be get around that belief. There isn't any compromise on this. Either Rust is tried, then spreads, then is accepted, or it's snuffed out right now.
A big mistake by R4L people is seeing anti-Rust arguments as "unfair" and "nontechnical." But it is a highly technical argument about the health of the project (though sometimes wrapped in abusive language). Rust is very scary, and calling out scared people as being unfair is not effective.
There is nothing to deliver that would satisfy this argument. Pretending like the disagreement is about a failure of the R4L folks to do "enough" when in fact there is nothing they could do is toxic behavior.
If you go back digging in the LKML archives, Christoph's initial response to Rust was more of a "let's prove it can be useful first with some drivers"
That has now been done. People (particularly Marcan) spent thousands of hours writing complex and highly functional drivers in Rust and proved out the viability, and now the goalposts are being moved.
R4L people are allowed to get upset about people playing lucy-with-the-football like this wasting their f***ing time.
> There is nothing the Rust developers could possibly do or say that would alleviate the concern you've just exprssed.
They could do exactly what Ted Ts'o suggested in his email [1] that Marcan cited: They could integrate more into the existing kernel-development community, contribute to Linux in general, not just in relation to their pet projects, and over time earn trust that, when they make promises with long time horizons, they can actually keep them. Because, if they can't keep those promises, whoever lets their code into the kernel ends up having to keep their promises for them.
Many of them have, in fact, done all of those things, and have done them over a time horizon measured in years. Many of the R4L developers are paid by their employers specifically to work on R4L and can therefore be considered reasonably reliable and not drive-by contributors.
Many existing maintainers are not "general contributors"
It is unreasonable (and a recipe for long-term project failure) to expect every new contributor to spend years doing work they don't want to do (and are not paid to do) before trusting them to work on the things they do want (and are paid) to do.
Christoph refused to take onboard a new maintainer. The fight from last August was about subsystem devs refusing to document the precise semantics of their C APIs. These are signs of fief-building that would be equally dangerous to the long-term health of the project if Rust was not involved whatsoever.
I disagree. If you want to provide technical leadership by massively changing the organization and tooling of a huge project that has been around a long time, it should be absolutely mandatory to spend years building trust and doing work that you don't want to do.
That's just how programming on teams and trust and teamwork actually works in the real world. Especially on a deadly serious not-hobby project like the kernel.
Sometimes you are gonna have to do work that doesn't excite you. That's life doing professional programming.
Everything Ted Tso recommended is just common sense teamwork 101 stuff and it's just generally good advice for programmers in their careers. The inability of rust people to follow it will only hurt them and doom their desire to be accepted by larger more important projects in the long run. Programming on a team is a social affair and pretending you don't have to play by the rules because you have such great technical leadership is arrogant.
> It is unreasonable (and a recipe for long-term project failure) to expect every new contributor to spend years doing work they don't want to do (and are not paid to do) before trusting them to work on the things they do want (and are paid) to do.
It is absolutely reasonable if the work they want to do is to refactor the entire project.
it's like saying to people that they cannot add for example npu subsystem to kernel because they should first work for 10 years in other subsystems like filesystems on with they know little about.
sound absurd? just replace subsystems in above with C/Rust and the rest is the same.
Folks that maintain rust are responsible for rust code, if they won't deliver what is needed, their rust subsystem will fail, not C codebase, so it's in their own interests to keep things smooth.
my feeling is that some people think that C is the elite language and rust is just something kids like to play with nowadays, they do not want learn why some folks like that language or what it even is about.
I think the same discussion is when Linux people hate systemd, they usually have single argument that it's agains Unix spirit and have no other arguments without understanding why other thinks may like that init system.
> it's like saying to people that they cannot add for example npu subsystem to kernel because they should first work for 10 years in other subsystems like filesystems on with they know little about. sound absurd? just replace subsystems in above with C/Rust and the rest is the same.
No it's not. What you're missing is that if the Rust folks are unable, for whatever reasons, to keep their promises, it falls on the up-tree maintainers to maintain their code. Which, being Rust code, implies that the existing maintainers will have to know Rust. Which they don't. Which makes it very expensive for them to keep those broken promises.
To look at it another way, the existing maintainers probably have a little formula like this in their heads:
Expected(up-tree burden for accepting subsystem X) = Probability(X's advocates can't keep their long-term promises) * Expected(cost of maintaining X for existing up-tree maintainers).
For any subsystem X that's based on Rust, the second term on the right hand side of that equation will be unusually large because the existing up-tree maintainers aren't Rust programmers. Therefore, for any fixed level of burden that up-tree maintainers are willing to accept to take on a new subsystem, they must keep the first term correspondingly small and therefore will require stronger evidence that the subsystem's advocates can keep their promises if that subsystem is based on Rust.
In short, if you're advocating for a Rust subsystem to be included in Linux, you should expect a higher than usual evidence bar to be applied to your promises to soak up any toil generated by the inclusion of your subsystem. It’s completely sensible.
> What you're missing is that if the Rust folks are unable, for whatever reasons, to keep their promises, it falls on the up-tree maintainers to maintain their code.
But that's the thing, the deal was that existing maintainers do not need to maintain that code.
Their role is to just forward issues/breaking changes to rust maintainer in case those were omitted in CC.
You are using the same argument that was explained multiple times already in this thread: no one is forcing anybody to learn rust.
The point is that “the deal” assumes that the Rust folks will keep their promises for the long haul. Which kernel maintainers, who have witnessed similar promises fall flat, are not willing to trust at face value.
What if, in years to come, the R4L effort peters out? Who will keep their promises then? And what will it cost those people to keep those broken promises?
The existing kernel maintainers mostly believe that the answers to the questions are “we will get stuck with the burden” and “it will be very expensive since we are not Rust programmers.”
Isn't it the same as with support for old hardware? Alpha arch, intel itanium, floppy drives?
Those are all in similar situation, where there is noone to maintain it as none of maintsiners have access to such hardware to event test of that is working correctly.
From time to time we see that such thing is discovered that is not working at all for long time and noone noticed and is dropped from kernel.
The same would happen to rust if noone would like to maintain it.
Rust for Linux is provided as experimental thing and if it won't gain traction it will be dropped in the same way curl dropped it.
The reason the maintainers can drop support for hardware nobody uses is that dropping support won't harm end users. The same cannot be expected of Rust in the kernel. The Rust For Linux folks, like most sensible programmers, intend to have impact. They are aiming to create abstractions and drivers that will deliver the benefits of Rust to users widely, eliminating classes memory errors, data races, and logic bugs. Rust will not be limited to largely disposable parts of Linux. Once it reaches even a small degree of inclusion it will be hard to remove without affecting end users substantially.
> You are using the same argument that was explained multiple times already in this thread: no one is forcing anybody to learn rust.
I think this sort of statement is what is setting the maintainers against the R4L campaigners.
In casual conversation, campaigners say "No one is being forced to learn Rust". In the official statements (see upthread where I made my previous reply) it's made very clear that the maintainers will be forced to learn Rust.
The official policy trumps any casual statement made while proselytising.
Repeating the casual statement while having a different policy comes across as very dishonest on the part of the campaigners when delivered to the maintainers.
The issue with systemd was that many people felt that it was pushed onto them while previously such things would just exist and got adopted slowly if people liked it and then actively adopted it. This model worked fine, e.g. there were many different window managers, editors, etc. and people just used what they liked. For init systems, distributions suddenly decided that only systemd is supported and left people who did not want it out in the cold. It is similar with Rust. It is not an offer, but something imposed onto people who have no interest in it (here: kernel maintainers).
If users of other init systems don't want to make the substantial investment in maintaining support for those other init systems, then their complaints weren't worth much.
To start, not resigning when things don't go their way. That tendency is doing a lot to make the claim of rust people saying they will handle the burden of rust code unbelievable.
The standard procedure is to maintain a fork/patchset that does what you want and you maintain it for years proving that you will do the work you committed to.
Once it’s been around long enough, it has a much better chance of being merged to main.
That has already been the case with Asahi Linux - for years. It exists as a series of forked packages.
The thing is, you do still have to present a light at the end of the tunnel. If, after years of time investment and proven commitment, you're still being fed a bunch of non-technical BS excuses and roadblocks, people are going to start getting real upset.
However, it may only get merged in by being conceptually re-thought and reimplemented, like the Linux USB or KGI projects back in the day.
The general pushback for changes in Linux are against large impactful changes. They want your code to be small fixes they can fully understand, or drivers that can be excluded from the build system if they start to crash or aren't updated to a new API change.
You can't take a years-maintained external codebase and necessarily convert it to an incremental stream of small patches and optional features for upstream maintainers, unless you knew to impose that sort of restriction on yourself as a downstream maintainer.
As a non-interested observer; I think it will need to be said until the commitment becomes credible. I don't know how it would become credible, but it's clearly not considered credible by at least those of the kernel maintainers who are worried about the maintenance burden of accepting rust patches.
> the Rust maintainers have committed to handling all maintenance of Rust code, and handling all breakage of their code by changes on the C side.
How have they "committed"? By saying they commit[1], I presume -- but what more? Anyone can say anything. I think what makes the "old guard" kernel maintainers nervous is the lack of a track record.
And yes, I know that's a kind of a lifting-yourself-by-your-bootstraps problem. And no, I don't know of any solution to that. But I do know that, like baron Münchhausen, you can't ride your high horse around the swamp before you've pulled your self out of it.
___
[1]: And, as others in this thread have shown, that's apparently just out of one side of their collective mouth: The official "Rust kernel policy" says otherwise.
> "the thin-blue-line comment is a bit weird though"
In US, "thin blue line" is a colloquialism for police officers who typically wear blue and "toe the line." You should not be downvoted/shadowbanned/abused for your post, IMHO.
> Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust"
Given the online temper tantrum thrown by marcan, Ted Tso'o's comment seems totally reasonable, regardless of one's opinion of Rust in the Linux kernel.
> tharne 4 minutes ago | parent | context | flag | on: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
>
> > Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust"
> That seems totally reasonable. Putting aside the technical merits of the Rust language for the moment, the Rust community suffers from many of the same issues currently hobbling the Democratic Party in the United States. Namely, it often acts like a fundamentalist religion where anyone who dares dissent or question something is immediately accused of one or another moral failings. People are sick of this nonsense and are willing to say something about it.
It's really interesting that every time I open a thread like this, countless people come out swinging with this claim that Rust is totally this religion and cult, while the rest of the thread will be full of C evangelism and vague rhetorics about how nothing like this ever works, while actively contributing to making sure it won't this time either.
99% of insufferable Rust vs. C interactions I've come across it was the C fella being the asshole. So sorry, but no, not very convincing or "totally reasonable" at all.
> 99% of insufferable Rust vs. C interactions I've come across it was the C fella being the asshole. So sorry, but no, not very convincing or "totally reasonable" at all.
This has also been my observation as a C++ developer who finds themselves in a fair few C/C++-aligned spaces. There are exceptions, but in most of those spaces the amount of Rust Derangement Syndrome I've witnessed is honestly kind of tiresome at this point.
Quite frankly, if I had the realization that despite assurances to the contrary, that my contributions to a project had been sabotaged for months or even years up to that point, I would have also had a hard time keeping a smile on my face.
This is ultimately what this drama comes down to. Not if Rust should or shouldn't be in the kernel, but with kernel maintainers' broken promises and being coy with intentions until there is no other option than to be honest, with the reveal that whatever time and effort a contributor had put in was a waste from the start.
It seems like the folks who didn't want Rust in the kernel will be getting their way in the end, but I had better never hear another complaint about the kernel not being able to attract new talent.
I can't believe you're the first person I find in this conversation who raises this issue. This is the exact reason why Marcan flipped his lid. Linus publicly championed a very technically complex initiative and then left all those contributors to the wolves when things didn't progress without a hiccup. Especially damning when you consider that at every step, the fief lords in Linux have seemingly done everything in their power to set up the r4l people for failure and Linus hasn't so much as squeaked at them. He personally cut the knot and asserted that Rust is Linux's future, but he constantly allows those below him to relitigate the issue with new contributors (who can't fight back because even though they're contributing by the supposed rules, they don't have enough social buy-in).
> my contributions to a project had been sabotaged
I really wish people would stop throwing around the word "sabotaged". No one "sabotaged" anything. The opposition has been public from the beginning.
If I'm opposed to something, and someone asks my opinion about it in a private conversation, it is not "sabotage" to express my opinion. So far I haven't seen any evidence that those opposed to a mixed-language code base organized behind the scenes to hamper progress in anyway. Instead, their opposition has been public and in most cases instant.
Are people not allowed to be opposed to things anymore?
The distinction in this particular case is that Rust tried to "downvote" a lkml discussion to get code merged. No one much cares about rendering color in HN comments, except to the extent that we're having this discussion (which you found valuable enough to contribute to!) in an invisible flagged subthread because Rust people don't want to have it, apparently.
It's just tiresome. And it boiled over here, because no matter how enthusiastic the Rust people can be their youthful exuberance pales in influence in comparison with the the talent and impact of the Linux Kernel maintainers. And the resulting tantrum shows it.
>The distinction in this particular case is that Rust tried to "downvote" a lkml discussion to get code merged.
You're attributing to "the Rust community" an imaginary offense that did not actually happen that way and couldn't be attributed that way even if it did. And then you make claims about how "the Rust community" is toxic. Right.
