Having moved around Europe, I stick to US international. As a programmer, all these weird keyboard layouts that put their locally preferred characters in places where a US keyboard layout has all the things that programmers use all the time, is just really inconvenient. I've met more than a few Germans, Finns, and Swedish that map their local keyboards to US English for this reason. Keeping the local layout is just begging for repetitive strain injuries. Having to use 3 fingers to produce a { or a [ is just not acceptable or workable. And mostly the working language in a lot of companies is English anyway.
That's the point of EurKey. Special characters are the same as on the US layout with additional, language specific letters available. At least for writing English and German it has been great for me.
Developer from Norway here and I've used 'US Intl, with dead keys' for about 10+ years.
Our ÆØÅæøå are slightly inconvenient (using AltGR on Linux, and Option on Mac), but you quickly adapt and I find it to be worth it to have all the programming relevant characters like '"{(\| in the super convenient location of the US keyboard.
My extremely made up assumption is that the Norwegian keyboard design was designed for typewriters, and the US is an older design made by and for developers.
English simply requires fewer characters, and so things that are useful for any programming language, like different kinds of brackets and quotation marks, are more prominent on US keyboards.
> Which is impossible to do properly, because those keyboards differ from US keyboards in their geometry, not just in the labeling of the keys.
The only difference is that on US keyboards the enter key is smaller and left shift is larger, leading to the "\" key being moved one down and one left on a German keyboard (and also being duplicated to left of z (German label: y)). So even if you move from a physical US keyboard to a physical German one while keeping the US layout, it's literally just one key where you'd have to retrain your hand. And for people that have learned to type on a German keyboard this is not a problem at all since they have never typed on a physical US one and using a different mapping means a training period anyway.
Source: German who mapped his keyboard to US (+ some AltGr modifiers for the German characters I need).
I don't know about the other European layouts, but I assume it's somewhat similar for them too.
I do this (US keyboard layout on German keyboards) since the mid/late 90's without problems. The physical differences are not very relevant (it's just things like the size of the Return key and related to that, the location of the Backslash key).
I seem to remember that the Amiga had a German keyboard layout which was much more convenient for programmers (at least I only started the habit of using the US layout after I switched from Amiga to PC).
Keymap layout and physical layout are two orthogonal issues.
Keymap layout (e.g. US /other language vairants) is primarily user-preference software setting, unrelated to the physical hardware (except for labels, but these are not relevant for function).
Physical layout (ISO / ANSI / backwards L-shaped enter) are unrelated to its logical function.
The EurKEY post seems to offer a keymap layout, not specific physical layout, so physical geometry is irrelevant.
The main issue for me has been the daft L shaped enter key.
Having started with computers and terminals using a simple horizontal bar enter, hence I generally prefer to get a US geometry keyboard when possible.
Stuff like the split pseudo-L of say the Framework keyword is acceptable, since there is still a horizontal enter.
Others at work tend to get confused by the (UK geometry) keyboard on my desk operating with a US keyboard map, simply because there are 2-3 key caps in the "wrong position"...
As a Belgian I simply use US intl and damn AZERTY to hell and back. The biggest problem is the size of the left shift which is only "right" on the Apple US intl keyboard and just wrong on anything else in Europe.
I also hate the extra big enter key, I mean what the hell? Give me my backslash above the enter any time of the year.
Thank god I got my escape key back BTW. I needed an external keyboard just for that crap.
The key mapping still works. I prefer the UK layout, e.g. (which has the vertical return key instead of the horizontal enter key in US layouts). If I connect a UK keyboard and use US mapping it still works.
Generally, though, I always try to get any English layout, instead of a European one and map as I desire. For macs that would be English International.
> I've met more than a few Germans, Finns, and Swedish that map their local keyboards to US English for this reason
Native french speaker here and I do the same: it's QWERTY for me. Also there's just sheer insanity: like in Belgium, which is a tiny country, you have different layouts. And "french french" layout is different than "french belgian" etc. It just makes zero sense.
So I just use a QWERTY layout.
And I just set up a compose key for when I need to write in french. But then the thing is: I can write without any special character and then use a spellchecker to instantly fix everything so...
I routinely write in English, Spanish, French, and Finnish, and I code several hours a day. For me, the best layout (other than my Dactyl Manuform's, which is layered) is the standard ANSI US, with a compose key. The compose key gives me easy access to all diacriticals and accents, and I don't need to switch contexts at all.
That is if you are lucky enough to have a choice of hardware provided by your employer, but usually "easily" fixed with an external keyboard if need be :/
Germany is pretty grim here, most not-even-huge companies will just order QWERTZ.
I didn't say the Z was relevant, it's just how most people I know identify this layout, but fine. "German ISO keyboard?"
And no, it's also not "just" the big enter and pipe (and the left shift). It's different, and cool if it works for you, I'm thrown off nearly as much when switching to a US layout on one of those as when I had been typing on US Intl for a while and then switch to the German layout.
The main problem with the German layout IMHO, and all layouts in its family, is the infuriatingly tiny left shift key. The Netherlands has the same disease. I map the useless key next to it as a shift as well, at least that way I can type without getting pinkie arthritis.
I use a few European characters but I've found the best keyboard layout by far is the US key layout on a Mac. By using option you have access to all the special characters and modifiers you need.
ü ö ø å æ ê é ... Very simple to find and you'll actually remember their positions because they are (somewhat) logically placed.
At the same time, the US layout also has a very convenient setup for coding, and not any extra keys taking up space.
What I find annoying, is that none of the Apple dealers in my country (The Netherlands) have stocked laptops with the US key layout. You need to order it online and wait a couple of weeks.
I prefer the US international layout (with the standing return key) and it happens to be that the Dutch layout is just US international with a '€' sign printed on the '2' key as well. So I think I'm lucky in that regard.
You don't even need to use Option — by long-pressing a letter, you have a menu opened with all the different options conveniently numbered. As an example for the letter "a": a1 is à, a2 is á ... a8 is ā.
That's probably one of the features I loved the most when using macOS. Wish I could find something similar for Linux, so I wouldn't have to keep switching between keyboard layouts when talking to people from the US and people from Brazil.
I disable that as it takes too long. I want the character now in approx the same time it takes to type another character. Nice option to have for some users though, I guess.
I use the Swiss layout for the exact same reasons. Plus, it’s easy to find here in Switzerland. The only extra keys are the ones one uses a lot when typing German and French.
I think the name "European" is badly chosen - there are many languages not represented there if you consider the whole Europe. This might be "western Europe" although I am not an expert to confirm nothing is missing there either ...
For Romanians and Moldavian I don't see: ă â ș ț î
This is an impossible task, just use the standard "Programmers" layout for your language which maps to US and allows access to accented characters via modifiers. The entire notion of a "local" keyboard layout sounds like a nationalistic throwback to the days where the world was much smaller. Some languages really need it, but most using the Latin alphabet simply don't, just stick to US.
I think you're supposed to use the composition key for those. Don't know how frequent they are in croatian though, so it might be impairing the speed at which you can type if they are very common
Any letter with ogonek is lacking, which includes į and ų.
I find it (in)amusing that it contains "ij", which I understand is only used in Dutch, but it lacks letters with ogonek, which is used in at least two official European languages (Polish and Lithuanian), which amounts to around 48 million native/fluent people.
But my argument was meant in a different direction: ogonek is present in two official languages of the European Union, while "ij" is present in only one; still, "ij" got a dedicated key. That, alone, would be sufficient to state it is under-representing European languages.
Then, for shocking comparison, I used population, which, obviously, has Polish as the biggest contributor. Still, 48 million is twice the amount of speakers that might ever use "ij" (estimated in 24 million worldwide), so I think the point is still valid.
Besides, the keyboard layout is also advertised as meant for translators, and Lithuanian is special in this sense: as one of the oldest Indo-European language still in use, and considered by many the most conservative one, it is of interest for linguistic studies, which includes translation.
These seem to cater for "math Greek". What about accented Greek letters (which almost every Greek word uses, to indicate where the emphasis is), or even final sigma?
Like, where are my macrons, tildes and hačky? I get it that not all characters from european language alphabets can be crammed into one keyboard but next time this should be correctly named for what it really is. Someday i might learn western eurpean language if i can challenge my willpower..
This seems to suffer from the "Swiss Army Knife Syndrome": It does many things, but not one thing well.
Any individual "European" (that is, a speaker of a language which uses those Latin-extended characters) is going to want a layout where the symbols they use daily are accessible either as separate keys, or with Shift. Requiring AltGr to type é and è isn't going to fly with users who need them. And I'm certainly not going to press Shift+AltGr+A/O/U to get Ä/Ö/Ü, which I have to type many times per day.
Some parts of the layout also seem to ignore which letters are actually in use. The capital Eszett (ẞ, Shift+AltGr+S in this layout) simply isn't a thing in the real world. It has zero usage in practice. Surely that spot could be utilized for something better?
I'm sticking to my Swiss layout where äöü are directly accessible and I finally got used to it. Not switching back and Apple can suck it for having a different Swiss layout.
I think generally this layout is more for programmers. If you're programming more than writing a text in your language, eurkey is certainly the way to go. I for myself switched to it and will never look back.
I definitely prefer the ANSI left shift key, but I am keeping my ISO enter key, thank you. Indeed, I have a keyboard with an ANSI left shift and an ISO enter key.
But honestly, why not just use US Intl AltGr dead keys?
Great idea! Most programmers use the US layout anyway because then stuff like [ and { are easy to reach. This project extends the US layout by adding all the usual German+French+Italian+Spanish special characters onto the regular character keys, similar to how Alt+E is the Euro sign on standard German keyboards. Alt+A is Ä, Alt+O is Ö, Alt+U is Ü and Alt+S is ß so for German, that choice seems quite intuitive.
Shameless plug: I maintain a keyboard layout that allows you to effortlessly type 15+ European languages with it. It's entirely compatible with QWERTY, so anyone can switch to it without relearning anything.
Contrary to EurKey and QWERTY international, it's a breeze to learn and use. The placement of every key is logical, you just need to learn a few simple rules and then everything makes sense!
No ő, or ű for Hungarian. I personally use US International on Mac and I never looked back. It uses a system where you press Alt + a key for an accent, and then the letter to put the accent on.
That's basically a US layout with some tweaks. Nice try muricans...
Jokes aside, honestly I feel confident with US (or ISO/UK) keyboard and I think that I share this sensation with the vast majority of european developers and sysadmins. Also in general the ANSI format is more aestetically pleasing than ISO one, and, above of all, if you like mechanical keyboards ANSI plates are more widespread and consequentially cheaper, so I don't oppose this proposal
The Spanish layout (as used in Spain) is the best compromise I've yet found to write code, Spanish, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Catalan, and would probably work fine for most other European languages with a couple more dead keys.
It's missing at least "ß" for German, has annoying dead key, but above all it's extremely awkward for coding because most symbols have been shuffled around for no good reason.
Try out altgr-intl[1] (but no dead keys, where you just press e.g. AltrGr+E for "é", might not be installed on windows/mac). It's much better than Spanish for Spanish, can be used for the mentioned languages and probably some Scandinavian, and doesn't make writing code awkward.
If you want to have a bunch of letters of the alphabet with any the diacritics on top, you run out of keys very very quickly. Dead keys are the sane solution to that question.
Also, regarding ß, I've got it in two ways: "AltGr + s," or the sequence "Compose, s, s."
Fun to see they have included the dutch IJ ligature. I think nobody ever uses this and just types out I and J. I previous employer told now and again made a search for the word 'vrij' (free) on Slack to see if people were honest with there holidays. So when sending a message that I took a day free I would use 'vrij', just to troll.
Having the name wrong, because the author forgot that Eastern Europe has been part of Europe for around 1000 years now, is acceptable. But the decision to support 5.5 speakers of Danish instead of 40 million speakers of Polish for example, is much worse, it's stupid engineering.
There was a day when I had to switch between Japanese-Swedish-US physical keyboard due to differences between my laptop, office's machine, and some other machines I had to take care of.
The problem with switching keyboard like this is not the placement of alphabet, but the different location of symbols. Like, "/" and "-" have the same location between US and swedish keyboard, respectively. And this cost me a lot of context switching.
Decided to screw it, by bringing my US keyboard everywhere, and (virtually) switch to another keyboard just if I need to, i.e., to write particular characters like "ö,ä,å".
While it's a nice idea and usually I am a sucker for all things starting with European*, it seems to fall short and the practical use seems limited - who is writing more than 3-4 languages at a time?
I'll stick to my AutoHotkey macros to put portuguese ã/ç/õ via AltGr on my german keyboard:
I use US layout with Caps Lock mapped to toggle to my "native" layout. This way I can easily code without RSI-inducing combinations to get the frequently used {}[]\, and just tap caps when I'm writing emails without needing to retrain my muscle memory of where åäö are located.
On Windows there's also a setting to get each app to remember the selected keyboard layout (Set-WinLanguageBarOption -UseLegacySwitchMode) so I don't even need to switch most times.
Not seeing the Romanian letters ș, ț, ă, â, î anywhere on the keyboard. Romania is in Europe, too.
(â and î are even needed in French, what am I missing here?)
I'm sure there must be many other letters missing. Not to mention Bulgaria and Greece.
No qualms with the layout, it's probably impossible to cram all European letters and common programming symbols on only ~four layers -- it's just the name that's somewhat provocative.
The obvious solution would be to have all variants of a "base" character like a or e be accessible via the same key + shift/TAB/option, etc. So s would include ś, ș, etc. Obviously this doesn't line up exactly with how the letters are used in their respective languages, but it's a visually-optimized solution.
à á â ã ā ă ȧ ä ả å ǎ ȁ ȃ ą ạ ḁ ẚ ầ ấ ẫ ẩ ằ ắ ẵ ẳ ǡ ǟ ǻ ậ ặ
You'd need to hold down combinations of 5 different modifier keys, and shift can't be one of them because that's used to capitalize all this. Nobody's going to do that.
I just use this for the German "Umlaute" it's the easiest way to get them while not putting special characters in hard to reach places (backslash anyone?). Easy to install and set up and as a bonus I can type greek letters for math stuff now!
Same, just use this as an US layout + umlauts. Because sometimes you need them, but otherwise the US layout is just way better than QWERTZ (IMO, i'm programming 90% of the time and life in zsh and sway).
Plain Polish layout is much better and much more „European” than this thing. You can input all the accented letters from all over the Europe (not only letters from Polish alphabet) using combining strokes. For example, ä is "Alt+[ a". In addition to that there's assortment of math/greek characters, many punctuation characters (incl. full set of all the various quotes and arrows, which is handy) and even some Latin ligatures.
The single exception is T-comma (used in Romanian), LATIN {CAPITAL,SMALL} LETTER T WITH COMMA BELOW, which AFAIK is impossible to input.
On Windows, I'm fairly happy with the "Pseudo VT320" layout from https://keyboards.jargon-file.org/ . All added characters and accents are via AltGr dead keys, so it's not in the way of normal programming. It would be nice to have a few more dead key combinations for northern and eastern European accents though.
No way this is going to work for Finnish use. The person who has made this clearly has no idea that in Finnish ä, ö are completely separate letters from a, o
You mean that it's cumbersome to have it hidden behind a key combo instead of it being its own physical key, correct? I get that, because it would slow you down tremendously. At the same time, if those letters would be physical keys, it would not be a European keyboard anymore, but a Finnish keyboard. So maybe the conclusion is that this project is nice for some languages, but not for all. In my language this keyboard would work, but letters like ö, ï and é are relatively rare and I'm actually content with the solution that I already have: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key. So for me it doesn't actually solve anything.
If I’m mostly writing Finnish text, then the native Finnish layout (with separate keys for Å, Ä, and Ö) seems better. And if I’m coding, I personally prefer the US English layout where [, {, ;, etc. are more easily accessible. But I could see this layout being a better fit if I’d need to frequently swap between multiple different languages and still have convenient access to the most common symbols used in coding.
This is the reason why just using local layout (or modification of it) makes the most sense. The keys are where they are for good reason. That said do you ever really need å or Å in finnish layout?
I use something similar to this. Although as a Spanish, the acute accent is prioritized on the main vowels: aeiou -> áéíóú, with alt-gr, and the dieresis (¨) is only used with the u (ü) so I leave it at a chord (alt-gr ', u)
I really like my "`" in the convenient corner of the keyboard (and even more so with Markdown getting much use in GitHub and Slack), so for me the ISO layout can go to the trash pile of history :)
I happen to be using this (present by default on Ubuntu 18 iirc). I'm surprised this makes me a bit of an outlier judging by the comments. EurKEY on a Dell XPS, with the Home/PgUP and End/PgDn flipped to get start/end of line in my editor right next to the arrow keys, right CTRL mapped to DEL. I am quite happy with that setup.
Why did you bother to reserve space but then add an application key (context menu key) instead of an Fn key? Most desktop layouts already commit the crime of omitting the left Fn key, the least you can do is leave alone the one on the right.
You're just begging for people to flash QMK and repurpose Caps Lock...
I don't know if I ever mentioned "standard" layouts? Anyway, I just looked it up, and apparently keyboard designers tend to replace right meta (the right windows key in this diagram) with Fn, and this layout still has one, so it's actually not missing a spot like I thought...
Now that I have a (zmk) programmable keyboard, one of the more frustrating things is getting it to produce characters that are not in the OS keyboard map. I think the best option might be to have a keymap that included more or less all characters so that they could be produced.
I forgot to add: the big upside is that you can then use the builtin laptop keyboard the same way. If you're on linux you can even kind of translate firmware mappings to xkb mappings for xorg and sway at least.
I still don’t like when number keys are taking ten keys on the unmodified keyboard. In AZERTY you would need shift to enter them, and that’s fine because anyway numbers are usually by group. While a lot of keys requiring caps are braces that you will enter twice.
Probably just preference from experience, but whenever I see people trying to force ANSI layout with other char sets, or adding missing keys such as £ it just looks awful.
In most European languages you will want to type an occasional é, ä or ø. Preferably without having to remember character codes, and with logical keyboard combinations.
where COMPOSE is typically ALTGR, but you can map it anywhere you want, like CAPSLOCK
I write daily in three european languages with many accented characters, and this is enough for all of them. I have even mapped composing a to α, b to β and so on, which is useful for the (occasional) greek word.
EDIT: (thanks to gpvos comment below), on linux with xorg you can achieve this by the following configuration:
# setup base keyboard layoud and model
setxkbmap us
setxkbmap -model evdev
# set compose to right alt
setxkbmap -option compose:ralt
# disable capslock sticky effect, set it as modifier
setxkbmap -option caps:ctrl_modifier
xkbset nullify lock
# enable dead greek letters
xmodmap -e "keycode 148 = dead_greek dead_greek dead_greek dead_greek"
xmodmap -e "keycode 66 = dead_greek dead_greek dead_greek dead_greek"
# swap brackets with parens (useful for programming)
xmodmap -e "keycode 18 = 9 bracketleft"
xmodmap -e "keycode 19 = 0 bracketright"
xmodmap -e "keycode 34 = parenleft braceleft"
xmodmap -e "keycode 35 = parenright braceright"
# enable ridiculously fast repeat
xset r rate 250 120
This nearly works on openbsd (you have to install the xkbset package, maybe there is another way). I guess that on macos and windows you can do similar things.
Your comment is useless if you do not specify which OS and keyboard layout you are using, or which mapping utility. This is absolutely not standard everywhere.
That must be painful unless you write foreign sentence just a few times a day. I'd install IME at that point, which basically gives you switchable keyboard layouts. たとえば、日本語をCOMPOSEキーで書いてみたら？
This is the case for most programmers in Europe. {, |, and similar are more important than accented characters, but you do need accents a few times a day. And it's easy to get used to.
I installed "Bookworm" (12.1.0) and i can not find this layout to add. But i also can not find the information that it was included in Bookworm. Only the info on the website that it is currently in Debian unstable. Were you able to add it via gnome-control-center?
