Do you also oppose the polio vaccine because it merely reduces the odds of infection? And every other vaccine for the same reason?
There is not a vaccine in the world that provides 100% protection to every individual. ALL vaccines work by reducing R0 to <1 so outbreaks shrink rather than growing.
I can’t believe we’re still doing the nutty antivax thing in 2023.
> I can’t believe we’re still doing the nutty antivax thing in 2023.
Expressing safety concerns and having a rational discussion about a new genetic therapy is not a "nutty antivax thing", and it is disingenuous and argument in bad faith to suggest that it is.
Could you please clarify why you believe calling COVID-19 vaccines genetic therapy is "the very definition of nuttiness"?
mRNA (Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines) and adenovirus vector (Janssen vaccine) are the transfer of nucleic acids and viruses that mediate their effect by translation, and transcription then translation, respectively, of the transferred genetic material.
The FDA defines them as such: "Gene therapy products. Human gene therapy/gene transfer is the administration of nucleic acids, viruses, or genetically engineered microorganisms that mediate their effect by transcription and/or translation of the transferred genetic material, and/or by integrating into the host genome."
You may have misunderstood that I was drawing a distinction and suggesting that they are not "vaccines," which some people do. Similarly, but from the opposite point of view, you may also be suggesting that genetic therapies and vaccines are non-overlapping categories. I reject the false dichotomy.
Respectfully disagree, and I assure you my argument is not made in bad faith. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that a vaccine CANNOT be a genetic therapy (i.e., that they are distinct and non-overlapping concepts). You may be confusing my argument with that of those who assert that the mRNA vaccines (and let's include Janssen's adenovirus vaccine) are genetic therapies but NOT vaccines.
The FDA defines "Gene therapy products. Human gene therapy/gene transfer is the administration of nucleic acids, viruses, or genetically engineered microorganisms that mediate their effect by transcription and/or translation of the transferred genetic material, and/or by integrating into the host genome."
Vaccines are typically very effective. So effective they can eliminate a virus among vaccinated populations.
Covid-19 vaccines are sorta effective. They didn’t eliminate virus transmission among vaccinated populations. But they reduced the severity of cases.
Pretending the vaccines weren’t underwhelming in terms of efficacy doesn’t do us any favors, because people know from their own experience that most vaccinated people have had Covid.
As I stated above the COVID vaccines didn't eliminate transmission they reduced transmission rates.
I've just replied to another comment and provided two (of many) statistically significant studies (for professional epidemiologists) that confirm that (specifically for two vaccines in the UK). There are other studies across the globe that affirm the same conclusion.
The important truths about "people know from their own experience that most vaccinated people have had Covid." are that many vaccinated people had COVID .. a milder form with greatly reduced rates of hospitalisation, reduced rates of critical care, and reduced rates of death.
The "two (of many) statistically significant studies" you provided are worthless as they are even before when delta wasn't even around. Relying on such outdated studies to make your point is very misleading when my comment specifically said "delta":
I take it that you do agree with conclusions of the parent, that vaccines are indeed effective against Covid, but that effectiveness is mediated by viral strains/mutations such as delta?
It reduces the severity of flu outbreaks for a population by reducing the likelihood and severity of infection for individuals.
Just like covid vaccines, flu vaccines also protect unvaccinated people by making it less likely for them to be exposed to the virus in the first place.
The critical thing that antivax people miss is that they are both individuals and members of a population. Reducing the odds of infection for individuals has an exponential effect on reducing the odds for a population.
Comparing polio vax to covid vax is silly and I don't think I need to explain why because I don't think it is worth arguing with someone who resolves to using ad hominem attacks of "nutty antivax".
There is not a vaccine in the world that provides 100% protection to every individual. ALL vaccines work by reducing R0 to <1 so outbreaks shrink rather than growing.
I can’t believe we’re still doing the nutty antivax thing in 2023.