His comment is accurate. The comment he was replying to was about nukes, not all of the state.
23 million is the loss of expect natality, not dead children. It's people that weren't born.
As with all famine as atrocities narratives, I wonder if you apply this standard fairly. Is every poor country that had a famine responsible or only those whose economic system you don't agree with? In that case isn't the West responsible for 2 million deaths every year by forcing Africa to adopt an economic system that leads to starvation? Of course you will say no but to me these are equivalent. It turns out there are no good guys
If you're really being hunted by the FSB then I am sorry that Russia is doing this to you. I suggest that you would not post about it here as this forum is monitored and this information would be identifying to the FSB. I truly wish you the best of luck.
The actual number of victims in 1932-1934 is the top secret of RF. If you know actual number and can prove that, you should be already assassinated by RF, like many other historians, e.g. recently killed this year Vladimir Schukin[0].
The earliest intact document suggests that there was 81 million of Ukrainians before Holodomor and 31 million after.
Nationality for 20 million ethnic Ukrainians was forcefully changed from Ukrainian to Russian (direct evidence of that filmed in 199x, when victims were still alive, and is available at YouTube[1]). 7 million adults starved to death (official number by RF[2]), 23 million children were dead also, but nobody counted them back then. 30 millions of Holodomor victims are hidden as victims of WWW2 («total» number of WWW2 victims raised from 12 million to 42 million).
Famine and starvation is not equal to mass murdering by starvation. You are trying to downplay the murder to just «a death».
I'm sorry but I cannot take your opinion over that of historians which, after the fall of the USSR and access to the archives, saw the general consensus shift away from murder - instead it was found that the incompetence of party officials was even greater than one could have imagined.
The assertion that Schukin was assasinated by the Russian Federation is unsupported. I cannot find any non-Ukrainian media that supports this thesis and I can find many that don't from third countries that are unfavourable to Russia. Therefore I conclude that the theory of assassination by a violent anti-semite is the most likely. I doubt that the Ukrainian prosecution would shy from suggesting a Russian assassination if they thought so.
I don't doubt that the nationality of Ukrainians was changed to Russians. A lot of persecution of Ukrainians happened, which is a historical fact. The question is whether the famine was intended or if it was a mistake, and it seems clear that this was not the case. Then the question becomes if it was murder on the side of the Soviet government not to redistribute food, which it would have been if they had known the extent of the famine, but as we know now the corruption and incompetence was so high that it is wholly believable that they actually thought the situation was far from as bad as it was. From then on the immigration bans make sense and so does the maintenance of exports.
Now was this on the the absolute fault of the Soviet government? Yes, it is. But so is every single famine from 1900 onwards. If you consider it to be murder, so is every single other famine since the invention of fertilizer. I only ask that one is consistent.
> instead it was found that the incompetence of party officials was even greater than one could have imagined.
If the famine was indeed due to sheer incompetence, it could be argued that they were victims of the revolution that set up that incredibly incompetent government.
Again, do you extend that argument to every single government that has a famine or mass casualty event due to incompetence? You can, as I said, but do you do so?
> I'm sorry but I cannot take your opinion over that of historians which, after the fall of the USSR and access to the archives, saw the general consensus shift away from murder - instead it was found that the incompetence of party officials was even greater than one could have imagined.
It's reads like joke. You are completely incompetent, right? Can you murder just 1 million of people and cover it for decades? What level of incompetence is required for that? Can you kill 1 million by mistake?
Communists party has a goal: kill bourgeoisie as class. Why you are trying to label the MAIN GOAL of communists party as "incompetence" or "mistake"?
Leaders of USSR created secret police, to watch transition of USSR from bourgeoisie past to communist future. Secret police found that majority of Ukrainians prefer freedom and free market, so Politbureau decided to eliminate Ukrainians as traitor nation, like many other nations. They created a plan and then performed it.
> The assertion that Schukin was assasinated by the Russian Federation is unsupported.
Yeah, nor passport nor business card were left by killer to help us. Same situation was with his science director: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Shytyuk , and many other scientists. Maybe, it's martians. What you think?
> On the other hand CIA handled instigators killed far in excess of 45,000 people during the 'cold' war.
It doesn't look like a comment about nukes. It's more like "OMG, CIA killed 45,000 enemies during the war!" It's CIA job to kill mad Russians to protect USA. What's wrong with that?
> I suggest that you would not post about it here as this forum is monitored and this information would be identifying to the FSB.
Killing Russians did not protect the USA from nukes, because the USSR didn't use the nukes. Read the comment in it's context.
>They know that I know.
It doesn't matter. Any comment you make online that can be linked to your identity will bite you in the ass in ways you cannot even begin to imagine. I also have personal experience in that domain.
23 million is the loss of expect natality, not dead children. It's people that weren't born.
As with all famine as atrocities narratives, I wonder if you apply this standard fairly. Is every poor country that had a famine responsible or only those whose economic system you don't agree with? In that case isn't the West responsible for 2 million deaths every year by forcing Africa to adopt an economic system that leads to starvation? Of course you will say no but to me these are equivalent. It turns out there are no good guys
If you're really being hunted by the FSB then I am sorry that Russia is doing this to you. I suggest that you would not post about it here as this forum is monitored and this information would be identifying to the FSB. I truly wish you the best of luck.