Ugh, this is going to get tedious, you're obviously feeling defensive for some reason. Please try not to be.
MSSQL does not munge data if the column is not equipped for it, I have no idea about sybase. You can test this easily by making an int column and putting a maxint+1 in.. it will tell you "NO" and not insert anything.
MSSQL supports schema changes in transactions, fully, again, not sure about sybase. MySQL 8 might support it /sometimes/ but the major concern I had with this fact is that MySQL doesn't tell you it's going to break its transaction isolation. -- it just commits in the middle of your transaction and moves on.
My final point is mitigated somewhat by MySQL "Strict" mode, which nobody enables.
> Ugh, this is going to get tedious, you're obviously feeling defensive for some reason.
Please edit this sort of thing out of your posts to HN, regardless of how defensive someone else is being or how provoked you feel. If they're really being so defensive, nothing good will come of arguing and it's best to let go anyhow.
> MSSQL does not munge data if the column is not equipped for it, I have no idea about sybase. You can test this easily by making an int column and putting a maxint+1 in.. it will tell you "NO" and not insert anything.
It does truncate strings.so does MySQL. But you need to enable strict mode. Easy.
Mssql does allow ddl in transactions, but do not do it, you will have huge locking issues. It will also not work in snapshot isolation.
My point stands: all major enterprise dbms have limitations. And you are dismissing MySQL, but by your standards Mssql and sybase would also be dismissed.
This is unfair.
You just need a semi competent dev to know those limitations. And MySQL with innodb is not that far from sql server or sybase.
> My point stands: all major enterprise dbms have limitations. And you are dismissing MySQL, but by your standards Mssql and sybase would also be dismissed.
You are refuting a claim I never made. My issue is not with the limitations, these are a fact of life with any and all technology.
My issue is with silent data corruption and subtle issues that break expectations
Thus, requiring any user of the system to be fully versed in all the documentation and to be prescient enough at all times when interacting with the database.
I can’t make such guarantees, and PostgreSQL follows the principle of least surprise much better. If I have two options and one of them has odd silent failure modes and the other holds your feet to the fire to ensure correctness. I will consistently choose the latter.
> it shouldn’t be treated as anything more than a nosql document store with mature replication.
This is the outrageous statement I was replying too.
I get it, postgresql is your thing (I'm a postgresql dba BTW). However you are being excessive and unfair.
You are just repeating a meme without having administered databases professionally. You need to study your database of choice. Postgresql or Mysql.
Are you aware of postgresql's fsync bug ? Is postgresql more than a nosql database because of that ?
> My issue is with silent data corruption and subtle issues that break expectations
SQL server and sybase do truncate data too. Silently.
Are they nothing more than nosql databases because of that ?
You've made a few comments about me here which I feel are undeserved, if you knew me you would not assume I am "repeating a meme", I am a classically trained sysadmin, not historically a coder, and I've been the bastion of data consistency in a few very high transaction/heavy database driven companies and I've been in the industry close to 15 years now. -- incidentally the only time I lost data was due to silent corruption bugs in the application or as a discovery made after inheriting a MySQL 5.1 cluster.
My choice of database technology is driven by industry experience, not fanboyism (many who know me, know that I fought very hard against the fad of mongodb, for instance). And it's true I prefer PostgreSQL these days, mostly because the only time it's ever bitten me was with the autovacuum and that was all the way back in postgresql 8.2!
It's possible I'm incompetent, but I'd rather not go into a slinging match about competency right now.
I am aware of postgresql's fsync bug, but that's not _at all_ comparable to: defined, documented behaviour in a database engine.
Yes, bugs happen and bugs are bad, but what the grandparent stated was absolutely not a bug, it's documented behaviour, it's known behavior and it's only _just_ becoming addressed and only in the loosest of terms (incidentally as programmer mindshare is starting to focus on alternatives).
FWIW, I personally believe that MySQL and its ilk should be relegated to legacy applications, I do not hold it as fact that there's a cojent reason to choose it for a new project even as a NOSQL solution unless a few things are true:
1) All your developers only know MySQL and MySQL specifics (as in, you're a pure mysql shop and you know it very well)
2) You already have a product built on MySQL, it's costly to move.
3) You are the people who are building/designing mysql and trying to compete with more competent database engines.
You bring up truncation of strings, but I was talking primarily about ints/floats.
As a person who has 'dba' in his name you've made a lot of claims disparaging MSSQL, some of them I told you that you were wrong about and you agreed; but I am fairly certain that MSSQL does not truncate a string on insert. I'm going to test this claim.
EDIT::
Sorry it took me an hour to install MSSQL on my laptop, I'm on vacation in Russia and internet here is hard to come by.
Anyway: MSSQL does not silently insert varchars.
#> create table #sometable(acolumn varchar(8))
#> insert into #sometable(acolumn) values('blah blah blah way more than 8 chars')
Msg 8152, Level 16, State 14, Line 7
String or binary data would be truncated.
`select *` shows no new rows, which is what I would expect.
It all depends on the ANSI_WARNINGS switch. Some clients set it, some don't. Thus you have to be explicit or you might have a NoSQL database.
You should also read about arithabort and arithignore.
As I told you, you need to study the database engine you are using. For Mssql too. So you assumed it's always on. The type of mystake some non diligent devs do with MySQL. Gives it an undeserved bad rep. A dba can help you and teach you the nuances. Ask them at your company.
There have been a considerable amount of efforts made to improve innodb. It's plenty fast and properly used, it's well behaved. Just like Mssql.
You are talking past the person you are replying to. Parent comment points out that MySQL has quirks that helps you shoot yourself in the foot moreso than other engines. Eventually you will slip up, no matter how diligent you are. The argument is that it's easier to slip up and with more frequency in MySQL, so when faced with a choice there are safer alternatives.
To summarise: Broadly the grandparent is correct, but some of his problems have been addressed in a very new version of the database in question. Is that fair?
> Most of the "problems" also exist in enteprise scale database server such as sql server and sybase.
You've repeatedly dumped a long string of personal attacks based on statements of fact that were fundamented rather well, and in spite of your repeated appeals to authority you've failed or refused to comment on the technical aspects and decided to react with attacks and repeated assertions that in your eyes other alternatives are not perfect. Perhaps its high tine for you to step away from the keyboard and think about what you've been doing in this thread and how you've decided to portay yourself in this discussion.
MSSQL does not munge data if the column is not equipped for it, I have no idea about sybase. You can test this easily by making an int column and putting a maxint+1 in.. it will tell you "NO" and not insert anything.
MSSQL supports schema changes in transactions, fully, again, not sure about sybase. MySQL 8 might support it /sometimes/ but the major concern I had with this fact is that MySQL doesn't tell you it's going to break its transaction isolation. -- it just commits in the middle of your transaction and moves on.
My final point is mitigated somewhat by MySQL "Strict" mode, which nobody enables.
I have very limited internet but this video should explain/show the behaviour I'm referencing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgJtr9tIME