While we are on the subject of downvotes, I'd love to have it require a comment (reason) to downvote. Not knowing why something gets downvoted is super frustrating. The comment doesn't have to be visible in the default listing; it perhaps can be a side option/listing or pop-up.
It's not going to happen; it's part of the ethos of the site to downvote in lieu of writing insubstantial criticisms, a policy Paul Graham actually wrote out once long ago.
It's the right policy, I think. The last thing we need are dozens more one-line "why this sucks" comments on each thread.
Re: The last thing we need are dozens more one-line "why this sucks" comments on each thread.
The reasons can be semi-hidden. They don't have be part of the default visible thread. A small hyperlink or icon could be clicked on to view them. One doesn't see them unless they want to.
Some posts clearly deserve downvoting, for example trolling or spamming. I have however either made some controversial or unintentionally ignorant comments that have been downvoted. In those cases it would’ve been helpful to know why people thought an opinion or fact was wrong.
People naturally chime in with "here's why you might wanna rethink that" comments all the time. I think the system works without mandating negativity even though I share your frustration sometimes.
lobste.rs does this pretty well, they require you to select one of the provided reasons for downvoting a comment. It gives direct feedback to the commenter as to why their comment was downvoted. The HN and reddit policy is, intentionally or not, "downvote if you disagree." Without any direct feedback mechanism, it will stay that way.
still a simple checkbox with a few well chosen reasons would be valuable. At the very least it would make you actually think of why you choose to downvote that specific comment. There are many nuances of disagreement, some deserving a downvote some not.
It's not going to be valuable. Would a simple checkbox with a few well-chosen reasons be valuable for upvotes? The difference isn't nuance or opportunity for self-improvement, it's just that getting downvoted feels bad and getting upvoted doesn't.
Whether it's "logical" in a universal sense is debatable, but removing a common known frustration of users is usually a good thing regardless. If purple walls anger your customers, then repaint them rather than argue that purple is logically better.
I didn't say it was 'logical' nor did I say dealing reducing user frustration is bad. Trying to address user frustration in this specific way is ill-considered and bad.
Direct feedback on HN is to leave a reply. When there's a lot of poison floating around a discussion, it doesn't work, but in many pleasant HN discussions it seems to work OK.
Tangentially, joining lobste.rs is a pain. I once hung around on chat asking for an invite and then gave up. HN on the other hand makes signing up just a matter of seconds, and also has a better breadth of content (because it doesn't make one jump through hoops to sign up). Given this context, the choice between a site where downvoting with a reason is available and a site where downvoting doesn't provide anything more is quite clear at least to me.
> I'd love to have it require a comment (reason) to downvote
This has been something I’ve wanted to see in Reddit for a while now. I just recently learned that lobste.rs has this feature, and some other interesting stuff like a public mod-log.
Personally I've long wished we would just get rid of any type of approval signalling behavior for comments (across the web too, not just HN or reddit). Probably (almost certainly likely) in the minority on that one, though.
It allows more substantive and interesting comments to wander upwards and be more easily accessible/visible. I feel it works fine on HN, not sure why you'd want to remove that feature. Not all comments are equal and we shouldn't have to treat them that way.
It allows more substantive and interesting comments to wander upwards and be more easily accessible/visible.
I used to believe that, honestly, really did. Not anymore, not after watching how many communities actually behave themselves with vote mechanisms. One of those moments where something "looks good on paper" but not as much when the rubber meets the road, I'm finding a very real personal dislike with approval signaling/seeking features in online discussion groups.
"Not all comments are equal"
I don't believe that either. Maybe it's just a matter of my perspectives changing after the last 17 years on the internet, which is fine. Everyone has a different experience with it.
This same fatigue with "approval signaling" on online commentary extends all the way to Facebook and Twitter, which one of the many reasons I'm no longer on either platform. Reddit is probably the next go go, for all sorts of reasons, if I were to list them, "approval signaling" will most undoubtedly be on the list, but probably further down comparatively.
But I should also clarify, I didn't mean to directly advocate a full out feature request and say "get rid of up and downvotes" right here and now on HN, I was kind of thinking through my keyboard there, I full well realize that feature very likely isn't going anywhere here.
