As a counterpoint: My family is in Atlanta (well, just outside of it), and it's probably my least favorite major American city. The traffic is out of control (and has possibly the rudest drivers in the whole country), McMansions and suburban sprawl are a way of life (my brother-in-law has an hour long commute to his near-downtown office, and keeps an office in his house so he doesn't have to drive down every day), and it feels like everything is at least 30 minutes away by car (and unreachable any other way; even to catch a bus or train you have to drive to a park-and-ride) no matter where you are in the city. Also, there's casual racism on a scale I've not seen in any other major city I can think of.
I grew up nearby, in Greenville, SC, and Atlanta was "The City". But, I've never liked it. Even with family there, I'd never consider it a place I'd want to live (and I really like my family!). I also don't choose to live in SF, but I'd pick it long before Atlanta.
That said, it is a growing city with a ton of opportunity. I know some folks who've moved there from other cities and they almost immediately found good work in their industry of choice (film, where they'd been struggling for years in Austin, having to have a second job in retail just to make ends meet). So, sure, cost of living isn't bad and the economy is definitely booming. But, it's not a nice city, IMHO.
> and has possibly the rudest drivers in the whole country)
There are 2 truths I've found, having lived outside Chicago, Manhattan, Atlanta (in 3 different areas), Orlando, Tampa, and Los Angeles:
1. Wherever you are, people think the drivers there are worse than other places.
2. Wherever you are, people think the weather changes more frequently there than other places.
I have NEVER lived, and rarely visited places (including Europe), where someone hasn't used the "if you don't like the weather, wait an hour" joke, non-ironically.
As to your point I quoted, the drivers in Orlando are orders of magnitude worse than Atlanta. And I'm wondering if you've ever been to south Jersey or Boston, if you think Atlanta drivers are rude.
Your other points about McMansions and SUB-urban sprawl are spot on. And, everything IS 30 minutes away, and unreachable by mass transit.
re: casual racism... Dunno, maybe. At least it's not overt racism like I've seen in many other places, but I'm guessing that's not what you were getting at.
"There are 2 truths I've found, having lived outside Chicago, Manhattan, Atlanta (in 3 different areas), Orlando, Tampa, and Los Angeles:
1. Wherever you are, people think the drivers there are worse than other places."
I have lived in an RV and traveled full-time for six of the past seven years. I've driven a bus-sized house through more cities than most folks have visited. I feel like I could write a (very boring) book about traffic. I agree that everyone complains about traffic, and everyone does say the same tired old line about the weather changing. But, there are differences in the character of drivers and traffic in various cities.
I will agree with you about Orlando (and Florida, in general); those are some shitty drivers, too. But, Atlanta really takes the cake. I was on the road for seven months in the RV before going to visit my folks for the first time (the first time in the RV, not the first time ever). I got cut off more, and had more people ignore my turn signals, in the hour it took me to drive across Atlanta than I had in the entire seven months prior in dozens of other cities, including Los Angeles (which has surprisingly polite drivers, given its reputation). I really don't get road ragey...except in Atlanta.
I have driven in both Boston and New Jersey. While they are crowded and the drivers (particularly cabs and buses) can be somewhat aggressive, and there are some ridiculous behaviors you wouldn't see in most other places (double-parking delivery trucks, honking and even yelling a lot more than you see in most places) I wouldn't categorize them in the same league of hatefulness as Atlanta drivers. Driving in Atlanta felt downright dangerous because of how aggressive drivers are.
Having driven a school bus during rush hour on the connector and down ponce, I can confirm what you're saying.
We had done a 9 day trip across the US and Canada, through mud, ice, through a nasty storm, down mountains with hot brakes and transmission, but no part of that more stressful than the merges in Atlanta.
I also happen to live here, and what you say about aggression (I wouldn't call it hateful) is pretty accurate. Not only do people typically ignore signals, some will close gaps _because_ of your signal. As a result, way too many people (police included) never signal. It's lord of the flies.
> But, there are differences in the character of drivers and traffic in various cities.
I've driven in Manhattan before and it's not that bad. Nobody will let you in but nobody will actively try to prevent you from merging either. You have room or you don't, figure it out. Driving in south Jersey is like driving in a maze of cars who are actively trying to prevent you from changing lanes or getting where you want to go. Between the Crown Vic going 10 under the limit or the WRX going 110, it's a wonder anything lives past the first six months driving in the Cherry Hill area. Orlando was the same way but the places I was in it just wasn't crowded enough to be that much an issue.
They drive hard, but there's a very clear & consistent code/system everyone abides by, drivers are attentive and bewilderingly polite: signal, and—more often than not—someone immediately makes room for you. Makes for stress-free, predictable driving despite being 20 over at all times.
… or maybe that's the norm, but I'm from Seattle where drivers are timid, indecisive, unpredictable, and passive-aggressive.
>I have NEVER lived, and rarely visited places (including Europe), where someone hasn't used the "if you don't like the weather, wait an hour" joke, non-ironically.
That can't possibly have been a common occurrence in LA... Our weather changes about half a dozen times a year.
People make that joke about Seattle quite a lot during certain seasons.
Seattle has a few months of near-uninterrupted sunshine and a few months of near-uninterrupted drizzle, but the intervening months interpolate by changing the weight of their random switches between the two.
Grew up in Boston, moved to the Bay Area, and I think Boston drivers are worse. Sister lives in Houston, and I think that Houston drivers are even worse. At least in most of the country, they won't fire a shotgun at you because you cut them off in traffic.
Also, I don't know anyone in the South Bay (SF is different) who thinks the weather changes more frequently than other places. Here the joke is "Walk outside. It's sunny. It'll be sunny from April until November."
I spent several years in Houston, and the drivers there are polite to a fault (four way stops are hilarious in Houston). But, if you aren't driving at least 10 MPH, 20+ on highways and toll roads, over the speed limit, you're gonna have a bad time. Houston traffic is the most insistently/dangerously fast traffic I've experienced.
There have also been more shootings on the road in Houston than anywhere else I've lived. So, yeah, that seems scary, but it's not something I worried about when I lived there. In the instances where someone got shot that I know of, the person was kinda asking for it (they initiated violence and the person they were beating on happened to have a gun under the seat or in the glove box).
>I have NEVER lived, and rarely visited places (including Europe), where someone hasn't used the "if you don't like the weather, wait an hour" joke, non-ironically.
I've NEVER lived anywhere anyone has made that joke, ironically or otherwise. That may have to do with the fact that the last 2 places I've lived (Portland, OR and Phoenix, AZ) have very long stretches of monotonous weather. But 2 certainly doesn't seem nearly as true as 1.
> I'm wondering if you've ever been to south Jersey or Boston, if you think Atlanta drivers are rude.
I spent the first 24 years of my life in south Jersey and never perceived the drivers as particularly rude, especially compared to Boston ... can I ask where specifically?
I think there is a cultural bias at work here somewhat, too. Wherever you learned to drive seems normal, even if it is way different than other places.
I think this is why Orlando and Atlanta are perceived as the wild west of driving; very few people are FROM there. Everyone brings their driving norms from wherever they learned, and they don't often mix well.
Jersey City was very scary in my motorhome, and I'm unlikely to go back in a big vehicle...but it was because of how dense everything is and how small and busy the roads are. I didn't actually find the drivers all that rude. They were kinda pushy about merging and such, but I didn't feel targeted the way I feel when driving in Atlanta.
That whole region, in general, has nicer people than their reputation would indicate, in my experience. New Yorkers and New Jerseyans (is that the right word?) were all pretty nice and helpful. I spent a month parked in Ridgewood, NJ (it was the closest I could park the RV to NYC for that long), and was struck by how friendly folks were across the whole area, given the reputation for rudeness. Riding the train was fun, asking for directions was rarely problematic, etc. Driving the house around sucked, but the people were fine.
And I'm wondering if you've ever been to south Jersey
When I was younger my friends and I would drive way more aggressively whenever we saw out of state plates. We thought it would be funny if they went home with horror stories.
I've road tripped through Atlanta at least a few times now, and without fail, no matter where the other people in the car are from, Atlanta drivers always inspire misery.
As someone who's lived in Atlanta for 8 years there's a massive difference in mindset and culture between the city (often referred to as ITP/Inside-the-Perimeter, referencing the ring of I-285 circling the city) and the various suburbs surrounding it. There's no way I'd live OTP by choice, especially with a non-flex, non-remote gig.
Imho, Marietta/Cobb County (NW of Atlanta) and Alpharetta/North Fulton (N of Atlanta) especially tend to have... less than cosmopolitan perspectives. DeKalb (NE & E of Atlanta) can go various ways.
My rebuttal to Atlanta being casually racist is always "Have you lived in the NW/NE?" We're absolutely still racially stratified (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Atlanta ), but compared to the other places I've lived and visited you run into a wider variety of people in everyday life. Which is important to me.
Hell, when I was younger I once worked a service gig at a beach restaurant in CT and could count on two hands the number of non-white customers I served the entire summer.
The more I think about it, the more I think it's less about Atlanta being more racist...there's just more opportunity for white people to be shitty and racist because they interact people of color much more often than in most of the other major cities I've lived in. So, I probably should soften my accusation of racism. I still see it, and it is still uncomfortable, but I also have to acknowledge that Atlanta seems to have proven itself to be a great place for black folks to build careers, build businesses, etc. So, race relations may be tense in Atlanta, but it is probably not because the people are inherently more shitty than people everywhere else. And, I also have to acknowledge that some of my favorite cities that are not overtly racist are seemingly racist on a systemic level in ways that I as a white person don't see very clearly; Austin, for example, has a rapidly shrinking black population. That's probably a useful measure of racism, as well.
I used to feel the same way you do; I grew up here, moved away, and eventually came back. Atlanta is a much different place now.
I wouldn't choose to live "just outside" of Atlanta either, for all the terrible traffic/commute reasons you mentioned -- I live ITP and a 5 minute walk from a train station with a 10-minute hassle-free commute. Somehow I can survive here as part of a one-car household.
Also please don't paint an entire city (let alone one with Atlanta's demographics) as full of "casual racism." C'mon.
"Also please don't paint an entire city (let alone one with Atlanta's demographics) as full of "casual racism." C'mon."
It's the only major city I've been to where a white person dropping the word "nigger" (and used in a clearly negative way) not only happens in conversation, but it doesn't elicit gasps or any negative response. To be fair, it's also among the more diverse major cities, with tons of black-owned businesses, and that's awesome. So, it may be the clash of cultures (shitty old poor white southerners surrounded by successful black folks leading to resentment) rather than Atlanta being more racist. But, the south, in general, has such a long history of segregation, red-lining, private clubs that mysteriously have no black members, neighborhoods with no black residents, etc.
So, I'm probably being overly harsh based on surface level stuff. Opportunity is an important part of the power of racism, and Atlanta seems to have shown itself capable of providing opportunity to black folks; at least enough to lead to lots of black folks choosing to live there. Cities like Austin, Portland, San Francisco, etc. may actually be more harmful (or at least less welcoming) to people of color than Atlanta, without any overt signals of racism.
I would say that, at least in my neighborhood (Midtown), someone saying that would be absolutely shunned. I can't speak for all neighborhoods, but I've lived here for about 30 years and I have never ever heard someone say that in casual conversation.
Yeah, we've got problems, but I would actually point you to our BLM protests as an example of our racial tolerance. They were almost completely nonviolent, well-organized, and incredibly diverse. Atlanta has a "we're all in this together" kind of spirit, at least in my experience. Casual racism is, for the most part, not tolerated.
> It's the only major city I've been to where a white person dropping the word "nigger" (and used in a clearly negative way) in conversation doesn't elicit gasps.
Maybe you should find new friends.
I was born in ATL and lived there the first 20 years of my life and then for 18 months after college. I can say unequivocally that I've never been in a situation where it would have been acceptable or "just felt normal" to encounter that.
> It's the only major city I've been to where a white person dropping the word "nigger" (and used in a clearly negative way) not only happens in conversation, but it doesn't elicit gasps or any negative response.
As a counterexample, I have lived in Atlanta for the past 7 years and never once heard anything like this. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it feels like you're painting the city with an overly broad brush.
That's such BS. I've lived here most of my life and never had some random person use N* in a conversation. Innuendoes maybe, even then it's usually some grumpy old person and they are flat out ignored.
Look at St. Louis and Baltimore. Much more brutality on both sides and riots. Atlanta isn't the old Atlanta and we don't tolerate that crap.
I haven't spent all that much time in Atlanta (and its suburbs), and I've heard/seen overt racism there. It was shocking enough, to me, that it stood out and has stuck with me. I can't imagine how someone who lives there hasn't experienced it, but I don't know your experience. In my experience, Atlanta is very much a southern city, along with all the good and bad that comes with that.
I'm sure it's getting better over time; most places in the US are. But, it's only been a few years since I last saw someone behaving in an overtly racist manner in Atlanta. I can't imagine it's changed drastically in that time. I'd appreciate if you'd read everything I've written on racism in Atlanta in this thread (and the other child thread). I'm not trying to paint it as a black and white thing, or suggest that Atlanta is the only city that suffers from racism.
It's probably the only major city in the Southeast, so that could be a factor. Drive an hour north from Atlanta, and you'll see confederate flags in this place. I'm not defending Atl, just rationalizing expectations.
Grew up in the suburbs, hated it. Moved into Atlanta and fell in love. It's perfectly proportioned for cycling. The food everywhere is amazing (I still miss Atlanta's food, now that I'm in SF).
I used to live in Decatur and now live in the burbs. Atlanta is diverse and has everything for everyone. Why bicker about it? You want to live in an expensive high rise? We got it. Want to live by a train station and commute to work? We got it. Want a McMansion? We got it. Want to live cheaply? We got it.
People need to stop judging others on how they want to live and pretend theirs is better.
Know why people move to the burbs? It's because most of the schools ITP are shitty, I can buy a bigger and newer house for my family to live comfortably. My small, 1974 home in Decatur is worth almost as much as my new home and the schools are not as good.
I work in Alpharetta, and probably will always work there so my commute is reasonable.
I have to fly into Atlanta from the West Coast 3-4 times a year and it is also my least favorite major American city.
There are nice places there (Top Golf, Bourbon Bar, tons of good restaurants)... But there are nice places everywhere and they certainly don't make up for Atlanta's other shortcomings. I can't articulate all the reasons for my distaste, but it just looks dirty and depressing. The traffic is horrible, the weather is usually bad. We refer to it as Shitlanta (which is an exaggeration, but not much of one).
Dirty? What parts of Atlanta? One of my favorite things about Atlanta is how green it is. After living on the west coast for awhile it felt amazing to come back and actually see something green.
Dirty is probably the wrong word... maybe run down? Roads are in poor condition, abandoned warehouses/factories everywhere, it looks like people don't care about the area. Probably nearby the airport, because that's where I fly in and drive out from there. But even inside the city, it doesn't look much better... I still get that same feeling.
ATL is green, has lots of trees, it's beautiful, but the trash on the side of the roads is ridiculous (I'm talking 285, 400, 75, 85) and seems to be getting worse. It's especially bad around the airport; so much for first impressions. If you go outside of ATL (or even inside) the situation improves a lot.
Well yeah, in and around the airport is a pretty horrible area but that seems like an odd way of judging a city. As for the highways I can't really say it is any worse than any other city I have been to.
We all have our standards. If I come to your house and there's trash on the lawn I won't leave with a good impression. For me that shows lack of management / organization. It's not like they can't afford it.
I can see piles of trash left from former homeless encampments on the side of the highway from my downtown Seattle office, so I guess Seattle is a shitty city too.
Doesn't make the entire city shitty, but it's not excusable either. There are much poorer cities (in relative poor countries) that don't have that problem. Also, the fact that you're defensive about this gives us a clue as to why the problem persists.
I didn't, no, someone in my family came up with it.
And I'm guessing you're being sarcastic, which is fine as a response. It's a strong word, and I'm sure plenty of people love that area. We just emphatically do not.
All true, but it's getting better. Also, there's a huge quality of life difference in Atlanta between living just outside city limits and living in the urban core or one of the adjacent former streetcar suburbs. Not only in terms of traffic and transit options but proximity to entertainment and cultural attractions.
Historically, most of the technology companies in the metro area were located in office parks in the northern suburbs. But momentum seems to be shifting back to in-town locations. When my firm moved to its present location in NW Midtown in 2007, we were the only tenant in our building. Since then, we've been joined by a marketing agency, Uber, Square, Worldpay, and a few others.
I grew up nearby, in Greenville, SC, and Atlanta was "The City". But, I've never liked it. Even with family there, I'd never consider it a place I'd want to live (and I really like my family!). I also don't choose to live in SF, but I'd pick it long before Atlanta.
That said, it is a growing city with a ton of opportunity. I know some folks who've moved there from other cities and they almost immediately found good work in their industry of choice (film, where they'd been struggling for years in Austin, having to have a second job in retail just to make ends meet). So, sure, cost of living isn't bad and the economy is definitely booming. But, it's not a nice city, IMHO.