Can you not study part-time? When I was studying CS, there was one older guy in his thirties who was already a programmer for a defense contractor. Simply being a professional programmer put him ahead of plenty of others in my class, leaving him with the task of purely getting his head around the theory while supplementing the programming knowledge he already had from working. When he graduated, he ended up studying for a masters full-time, and then he joined Microsoft.

In terms of finding work without a degree, it's not impossible, but I'd be prepared to start near the bottom of the ladder, underneath the graduates. A dedicated developer will do well regardless of their education, in the same way that a shitty developer will still be shitty even if they have a top-tier CS degree. I've worked with incredible developers with little to no education, and shitty developers with Oxbridge degrees. If you're looking to study part-time, that probably won't matter all that much anyway. When you graduate, you'll have several years of solid experience, and you'd be in a much better position to evaluate what you need to know before joining a big company.

You make a good point-- If I study part-time, by the time I graduate I would have accumulated ~5-6 years of experience which would diminish the value that I'd get from a degree. I'm leaning towards joining a bootcamp, building a portfolio and then looking for work. I feel like I'm missing out on the whole university experience, but in 4 years time I can accumulate a lot of work experience.

The only issue with finding a job right away is I would likely be starting as a junior at whatever company that will take me. I'm afraid that this will make me a less desirable candidate to good companies later on. The last thing I want to do is be stuck at a unknown company for a few years doing menial work and not learning anything new.

He could go with Open University. Accredited worldwide, everything done remotely and my understanding is that some people even manage to study and work full time, so theoretically he could get there in 3 years or 6 if part time.

This is a no brainer - do both. Your school is mostly covered, so just build your portfolio along the way. Who knows, you might not find a job for a while. Not only this, by having something else going on you don't have to accept some rinky dink bucket shop offer out of desperation. You might also get exposed to new ideas and college girls.

This is good advice, specifically the last word.

Also if you go to school it'll be easier to figure out what parts of the industry you like. I think most people have quite strong preferences about the sort of things they like doing professionally and school is likely to give you a broader experience than a job will.

If you have any bachelors then you should be able to add a BSCS with about a fulltime year of credit. I would do that part time over 4-6 years, ideally while working somewhere that pays for it.

If you don't have a bachelors, I would recommend getting one. But again, you can find somewhere with tuition reimbursement and do it slowly.

(If you already have another STEM degree, I would consider a masters that builds on it and requires programming before seeking a CS degree at a level you already have in another science.)

I finished my bachelor in my 30s, and I am glad I did. It is one less thing to worry about when looking for a new job, debating if I want to rock the boat changing the terms of my current employment, etc. It also lets me work in markets that are tough without any degree and continue to dictate most of the terms of my employment when the economy is in a down cycle.

While I get very similar things from MOOCs as from my degree, it is nice to have had the in person lectures as they seem to trigger a different kind of memory bootstrapping when I am drawing a total blank. I just wouldn't pay for them myself at the US market rates.

Did you study part time?

I never considered studying part time because it would take so long to complete the program, but a lot of people in this thread are suggesting I do it. I have no clue how people work and attend college part time? If I work it would likely be a 9-5 job and I wouldn't be able to attend my classes.

Although, the downside of going taking this route would be that I'd have no time for side projects and making things.

I did a mix of fulltime school, fulltime work (with an occasional class) and part time work/part time school. Employers seemed fine with my being in process of a degree and having done basic reqs, so no degree wasn't a barrier at entry, but it did slow down my career path as the highest status/most interesting groups couldn't justify selecting me until I had the degree.

I started learning programming at about 24, I'm 28 now and have been an indie developer since starting. I completed a 6 courses at a local university for a programming certificate. To be fair I haven't started looking for a job, but I might after this year.

I wish I just went to school and got it over with. When you teach yourself you'll come across topics that you wish you were exposed to sooner, and would probably help propel you further and quicker. For example, one of my courses covered data structures and algorithms, but barely. If I want a job I still need to learn how to practically implement them and practice, which is a difficult choice to make when I could be working on products. I might not have the discipline to teach myself algorithms/data structures today because I mostly don't care about them, but if it were a school assignment I would have done it and learned it.

My brother graduated from school w/ degree in web development -- he can't find a job because they teach out-dated js/css/html -- but don't teach anything at all about Angular, Twitter Bootstrap, etc -- and most companies that hire frontend won't touch you if you don't have some JS framework experience.. I'm backend/php dev in Laravel, and self-taught and work for a decent company, I'm a jr dev now in my first major gig. I don't really think you can 'practice'for a job -- honestly getting your first job is the best way to learn. Or building stuff, going through classes only gets you so far--you learn way more by pushing stuff into production.

Since becoming full-time and moving from side projects I've learned 500% more from working with team-mates than I ever could've in College or on my own alone.

The context of my reply was generally towards a 4 year program in engineering or computer science.

I think if you just want to be a front-end app or web developer than a bootcamp or alternative education can suffice. And I agree you learn more by producing work. Teaching yourself how to use frameworks like bootstrap or angular is easy. But teaching yourself fundamental CS principles like traversing a linked list or rotating a 2D matrix is much harder, and the payoff comes much later.

For example, you mentioned that you do backend dev. Suppose your boss asks you to do load balancing to handle server traffic. You could probably hack something together with AWS tutorials and Stack Overflow, but do you understand the principles behind it? Can you actually improve whatever it is you built? What if you can't afford AWS or you need a custom solution? If you don't know or can't do these things, then you'll never be as valuable or useful than someone who does.

True I guess, I'm a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none I'd say. PHP I'm pretty intermediate on, and linux. I can hack things and make them work, but I've taken college classes on programming, and to this day I've never used linked lists in my code. I've also never rotated a 2D matrix, but a lot of web apps and even mobile is a lot of the same interacting with api's, manipulating data, etc..

I've used linode before for node balancers as they have those as builtins. -- I do actually spend about 2 hours per week going through CS courses on things I haven't learned from a github CS syllabus which basically has an entire CS degree crammed into free online lessons. I'm also becoming more interested in learning pentesting - not only to be able to become a Whitehat hacker, but because it'll give me more insight into securing my own applications better from malicious hackers.

If I were you, I would honestly consider a top tier bootcamp if you can get in. Its typically 3-6 months and slingshots you directly into your desired career.

At your age (also my age), I just don't think there's is a ton of value in 4 years of college, especially full time. All things equal, 4 years of work experience is going to grow your skills and employability by magnitudes more than a college degree. I know many people who have gone through bootcamps without college degrees--dropped out or basically passed after high school-- and they were successful in getting jobs. Granted, they were very smart people. While I don't know if you would be able to get a job at those companies mentioned above (certainly possible), I don't think college degree would help at all, but 2 years of solid software engineering work experience might.

-thoughts from university and bootcamp grad

I'm from Canada, so I'm not sure how much value I'd get from the top tier american bootcamp programs like HackReactor or AppAcademy. Much of the value that comes from those bootcamps is their connections in Silicon Valley that get people jobs. It would also cost me like ~20k USD? If I were american I would definitely consider it.

There's a few bootcamps near me (Toronto), but I don't know if they're worth attending. The cost is a fraction of the top tier ones (~9k CAD) and they're 9 weeks long web dev programs.

Which bootcamps do you consider to be top tier?

Off of the top of my head, Hack Reactor (probably the most prestigious), App Academy, Flatiron, and Fullstack Academy are some that I know to have strong reputations. There are a ton of online sources that can do much more justice to the topic than I can, but the above are at least a couple of examples.

Real world experience = living and working together with other people = social skills. The 6-12 months bootcamp is probably the best ROI you can have: not too long in time, very demanding and job oriented, face to face with other people. You may also want to get in touch with former poker players turned developers, just send them an e-mail, they will probably tell you more from the perspective you really need. Good luck!

Somewhere in my stacks of books there's a copy of "The Screwing of the Average Man", by David Hapgood [1]. One of the chapters points out that College was originally something wealthy parents to send their children to, so that their offspring would have a leg up on the underclass. When hiring to fill a position, those doing the hiring would choose to go with the college graduate because they were "obviously" a better candidate for the job.

Then WWII came to a conclusion, and lots of newly unemployed veterans had nothing to do. According to Mr. Hapgood, because the Congress didn't want a bunch of PTSD'd young men wandering around, they started the G.I. Bill. [2], which paid for retired soldiers to go to college too. Thus began the college cost spiral.

I suffered through a computer science degree. It is a piece of paper hanging on the wall.

If you choose to start a college program, you have to be very focused on what's important to you about the courses that you take. I most certainly would NOT start out full time... Maybe take two courses to get a feel for the institution. You'll probably find that you're perfectly capable of teaching yourself quicker than any course you take.

[1] https://books.google.com/books?id=-PJ0DLVOIXcC (I don't agree many of the "screwings" that this book describes, but it does have a good point about college)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Bill (my one WWII grandfather had already graduated from dental school, so he used the GI Bill to learn to fly a plane. My other grandfather had no interest in "more school", didn't take advantage of it, and barely scraped by for a long time)

There is at least one other poker pro turned programmer, who ended up at AirBNB in his first job. http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-i/

You can search for the discussion of that link on HN.

There are big differences in how demanding Universities are. I'd go to one that is known to be easy and try to graduate in 2.5-3 years. Between summer classes and permission to take more hours you can really accelerate things.

There's some good advice in this post[0] by Sam Altman as well as the two extensive discussions[1][2] it has sparked on HN so far :-)

[0] http://blog.samaltman.com/advice-for-ambitious-19-year-olds

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5934698

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7696844

I've read that blog post before :) Unfortunately, the advice directed to 19 year olds might not be best for me. Sam suggests a 3rd option: going to college for 2 yrs and then dropping out. A 20-21 year old drop out with no work experience isn't the same as a 30 year old dropout /w no experience. And a 22yo fresh grad is very different from a 32yo grad.

Yeah maybe it doesn't all apply directly to your situation, particularly if you care a lot about building a CV. The post is largely about accurately assessing the risks though which I think is the important point - and it's going to be tricky to optimize for happiness/career/potential/security simoultanously.

That being said, no one will care if you're 20 or 30 when you drop out of college and bootstrap your own startup :-)

I will be graduating college this year, just a few days after my 26th birthday. Don't worry about age.

Here's one plan... Start applying for jobs and do a college application for the fall. No jobs in a month? Try school.

It's a tough pickle. College helps so much for your first job. But 4 years of your life could very likely be used for not much.

Me personally I gained a lot from school. But you don't need it to code some apps.

That was my initial plan, but I don't see it working out. My hands will be full with school and I'll have to commit to my tuition costs early on and sign a rental lease, and most importantly I won't have time to build a good portfolio while in school.

It will be difficult to get a job at a big company without a degree.

If you can afford it studying full time is probably a better experience (lets you focus and enjoy the lifestyle). Otherwise work and study part time.

Good luck!

How about both? I worked full-time through most of my college years, as did many of my classmates. It's rough, but not impossible. Night classes, early morning classes, online classes, etc.

I don't think you will be able to get a good software job starting so late. Sorry, man. Good luck trying something else!

Sorry man, I'm not going to let other people's preconceptions place false limitations on my own abilities.

Someone linked a blog post in this thread where a guy joined a bootcamp around my age and is self-taught. He recently got 120k+ offers from Google, Uber and many other good companies and settled with Airbnb for a 200k+ offer. I also spoke to someone else recently who started their postsecondary education at my age, and they now work for Uber.

Ok man, you can obviously do whatever you want. I'm just saying that you aren't that guy. Good luck! Software is extremely easy and anyone should be able to learn everything they would need to land a $200k+ job in a few weeks.

Jump into Open Source and learn on your own time.

Get a job first. This will open your mind and will help you identify what actually you want to work in software development.

check this out, might be useful if you dont wanna spend thousands in regular uni, https://github.com/open-source-society/computer-science

What do you have under your belt so far?

I'm embarrassed to say that I've been making a living playing online poker for the past 5 years. I have never had a typical job before. I took web development courses at a community college for one year, while self-learning through sites like codecademy. I learned html, css, javascript, jquery and a little bit of php and sql. I know enough to build a front-end web dev portfolio with practice projects.

If you can make a living playing online poker maybe you have what it takes to be a trader.

Hah. I'm always surprised by how many times someone suggests this. I've known people who moved into trading, and the skill set definitely seems similar. But I know nothing about trading, and I think I would rather enjoy building things and being creative. I guess it's something I should research (I wonder what the learning curve is like?).

Why is it embarrassing?

I don't exactly feel proud for being 28 and having no formal education and work experience. Online poker was good while it lasted, and it helped me grow independently. But it hasn't really granted me skills that I can translate to a real world career. I'll have a huge gap on my resume, and I know that some people tend to hold low opinions towards poker players. Many ignorant people dismiss the 'professional poker player' as a degenerate gambling addict.

I'm going to have a tough time making my resume look good!

Fair enough, seems like valid concerns.

But the media, with the movie 21 and the huge amount of poker tournaments on TV, seems to make is quite a 'cool' thing to do.

Maybe reality isn't as romanticised as the TV, but I guess playing poker takes a lot of skill and loads of hours, multitasking and so on that could translate to 'willing to put in work + smarts' that some recruiter could enjoy?

Maybe you should compile these facts, time spent, focus on the 'number aspect' of it. And such things. Put this and 'self sustained/employed?' on your resume etc.

Honestly I have no idea what hiring managers would think, and maybe I am far from their mindset.

Because he probably had to deal with people to whom you can't explain that there are variants of poker that are more than beatable with the right circumstances (rake %, player pool, fish-reg ratio, etc.)