It seems obvious that this ‘may’ is the ‘may’ used in the sense of granting permission: “you may go to the restroom”, “you may begin eating”, “you may ask questions now”, “you may kiss the bride” etc.
All these are clear. The wedding officiant isn’t saying “You might have permission to kiss the bride! Just try it and we’ll find out! Ha ha!”
To interpret this as saying that you might be licensed is just as nonsensical as that in this context. It’s in a file named “LICENSE.txt” explicitly meant to describe the license terms.
Would ‘are’ be better? I’d say yes, but it’s silly to argue that this isn’t proper English for granting permission.
But it is saying "You may be licensed to use source code..." which is analogous to "You may have permission to kiss the bride" if being licensed means having permission. It could mean that Mattermost may have licensed it to you in one way or the other, or neither, at their discretion. If it was written like a priest, it would have said "You may use the source code..." and this doubt wouldn't exist.
Licenses are not about what things "seem", their text should be clear enough to hold up to legal scrutiny, not just what some person who speaks some local variant of English thinks is obvious.
Even if you're a lawyer, whether it's obvious to you is irrelevant: it has to be obvious to everyone. And if it's not (and it should be abundantly clear that it's not, given the linked discussion), the license needs fixing.
Speaking only for myself here. But I don't have the arrogance to assume that I can interpret legalese the way I interpret English. When shit goes to court, saying here's what I thought "may" means is not going to be a legal defense strategy. There's a reason I hire lawyers for this kind of shit because they are really good at their job and I won't pretend I know their job better than they do.
you'd be surprised how much your command of the english language translates into legalise.
Yes, there's a definite codex of legal terms that have specific legal meaning but sound like "open to interpretation" english, but, those are vanishingly small.
Largely, if you read defensively and try to read what is not said, then you get very very far.
Source: spent about half-a-decade with very expensive swiss lawyers.
> Largely, if you read defensively and try to read what is not said, then you get very very far.
How far is "very, very far"? Is it far enough that, if there were a lawsuit, my liability would truly be capped at €10,000? Because that's how much liability I can afford. If that "very very far" guarantees such a limit, then yes, I agree it is very very far. But my experience tells me that without formal legal training, I cannot be confident that I have interpreted legal language correctly enough to rely on that conclusion.
Open source licenses are often relatively readable, but corporate contracts and other legal texts, including those from companies that market themselves as open source in questionable ways, can contain subtleties and loopholes. As a layperson, it is difficult to know how much exposure I might have if I misunderstand a detail and act in contradiction of the license terms.
Perhaps we are simply on opposite sides of the D-K effect here. Or maybe you simply are good with legalese and I'm being unnecessarily skeptical.
If experience with lawyers matters, I have spent many years working with lawyers across Europe. If that taught me anything, it is to avoid assuming that I can reliably interpret legal language without proper training.
Yes, I can usually grasp perhaps 80 percent of what a contract is saying at a high level. But in every contract we reviewed, lawyers consistently found issues or implications I would not have noticed. They then either refined the contract or advised taking a calculated risk. So I think it is reasonable for me to remain cautious about my own ability to interpret legal language with confidence.
Liability is capped by court (e.g. small claims court) or by specific claim type depending on the legislation of the jurisdiction (e.g. speeding tickets typically have set fines varying by state).
Liability is not capped by your ability to understand the law. If that is your concern, you shouldn't be doing business anywhere, US or otherwise.
> Liability is capped by court (e.g. small claims court) or by specific claim type depending on the legislation of the jurisdiction (e.g. speeding tickets typically have set fines varying by state).
What you are saying is partly true and overly simplified. Are you a lawyer? Do you have legal expertise? If not, I don't understand why you feel compelled to advise on things you understand so little yourself? Are you going to compare my contract with my vendor with speeding ticket? Are you kidding me?
Comparing contractual liability to speeding fines makes me think you have not a clue of what you're talking about. Speeding penalties are statutory and predefined. Commercial liability usually is not. In Europe, most serious business disputes never go near small claims courts. They go to ordinary civil courts or arbitration, where damages depend on the contract, applicable law, and the specific facts. There is often no automatic cap unless the contract explicitly sets one, and even then its enforceability depends on jurisdiction and circumstances.
Small claims limits only restrict which court hears the case, not the total liability. A claimant can often file in a higher court or pursue related claims elsewhere. And in cross-border European business, jurisdiction, governing law, and enforcement become additional risks. Getting this wrong can expose you to far more liability than you expected.
Liability is not limited by your personal understanding of the law. That is why businesses do not rely on guesswork. Contracts are reviewed, liability caps are negotiated, insurance is obtained and lawyers are paid to spot risks that non-lawyers routinely miss.
> If that is your concern, you shouldn't be doing business anywhere, US or otherwise.
Yes, that is my concern. I do business in Europe. By paying actual laywers. And I'll continue to do so. Thank you very much.
I didn't ask for legal advice. I was challenging my parent comment with a rhetorical question. With that rhetorical question, I meant that there is no way for the parent commenter to ensure that liabilities will be bounded, so I was implying that they were incorrect in saying that one can get very ver far. Please read the messages more carefully before jumping to incorrect conclusions.
> saying here's I thought "may" means is not going to be a legal defense strategy
It is - it might not be successful (the court may rule against you) - but if what you thought "may" meant was close to what a "reasonable person" would have thought, you may be ruled against with no or low penalty.
The counterpoint is that three sentences away, there's a clear "You are licensed to use the source code" for the non-server parts. It can certainly be argued that there's an intentional difference. Extended court cases have been fought over mere punctuation. In any case, the FUD that this creates is enough to make anyone think twice about reusing the server code, especially as they have refused to clarify for many years now.
Also, the ambiguity is not only in the "you may be" part, but also in the "to create compiled versions" part. Open source is more than creating compiled versions of source code.
You may be licensed to use source code to create compiled versions not produced by Mattermost, Inc. in one of two ways:
1. Under the Free Software Foundation’s GNU AGPL v3.0, subject to the exceptions outlined in this policy; or
2. Under a commercial license available from Mattermost, Inc. by contacting commercial@mattermost.com
My read:
We provide you with two options, either:
1. Follow Apache License
2. Pay us and you don't need to follow Apache License terms
This really seems like a dual license situation where they are saying "Let's encourage Open Source, but if you want to just use our work to make yourself rich and not even acknowledge you're using us then fuck you, pay us."
I expect this to become more common as companies routinely infringe on OSS licenses while simultaneously many companies are hesitant to use OSS because of licenses. This at least gives an out for the good actors and allow devs to make money (other than being reliant on donations, because... that's worked out...).
But maybe I'm misunderstanding? If so, I don't know what I'm missing
> But maybe I'm misunderstanding? If so, I don't know what I'm missing
You're apparently missing the two points I made in the post you are replying to, or at the very least you're not responding to them. By which I don't mean to say they are necessarily valid points.
My bad, I was confused given the context of the comment you responded to. Maybe I should quote the next line instead?
You are licensed to use the source code in Admin Tools and Configuration Files (server/templates/, server/i18n/, server/public/, webapp/ and all subdirectories thereof) under the Apache License v2.0.
So I read
Apache (OSS):
|- server/
| |- i18n/
| |- public/
| |- templates/
|- webapp/
Not Apache (pay us/not OSS):
|- api/
|- e2e-tests/
|- server/
| |- bin/
| |- build/
| |- cmd/
| |- enterprise/
| |- scripts/
| |- Makefile
| |- path.go
| |- this is not a complete list but you get the point
|- tools/
Part of the code is open source. Part of the code is source available (source visible).
Again, I am open to misunderstanding but that's my read.
I don't - it's the same as people defending thieves and burglars because "they are just people and they have families to feed". I've had shit stolen from my house before and the emotional damage this causes is far greater than anything financial - to me, thieves could be shot on the spot, literally zero sympathy towards them, they are only one spot below actual murderers and rapists in my book.
These guys are the same - do I feel bad for their plight? Yes, for sure, I wish we could help them and make sure they can live their lives free and not in what is effectively slavery. But they are currently "employed" destroying peoples lives, so many examples of people losing their lives savings to these scammers, many commit suicide due to this. Fucking around with them for youtube videos is the least we can do.
Thank you for illustrating my point in a far more unhinged manner than I could have possibly expected. Someone from a first world country in 2026 unironically defending that "thieves should be shot" needs to take a hard look at himself. Probably a good idea also to read the first few pages of Utopia by Thomas More, a fucking 510 year old book where the author explains why this is such a crushingly stupid (not to mention morally repugnant) way of thinking.
I do every morning, having moral integrity is something really important to me. I just still can't get over the trauma of having my own home invaded, burglared, and the people who did it getting away with it scott free - I sincerely hope they get hit by a train and die a very painful death.
>> Probably a good idea also to read the first few pages of Utopia by Thomas More,
I will do that, it's bedtime for me now but I'll have a look tomorrow.
You understand the front line of the pig butchering scam don't have agency, yet you call them thieves and burglars. They're not the ones doing it, it is those who control them. Having said that, I neither agree or disagree whether youtube videos should gloat about how they've wasted their time or whatever.
I think we need to make it practically impossible to run the scam by having social media / messaging operators shutdown fraudulent accounts, especially if reported.
>>They're not the ones doing it, it is those who control them
No, it is quite literally them doing it, not the people running the operation. Same as if there is an organised gang in my area it's the people who are in my house that are doing the burglaring, not the people running the gang.
And yes, I appreciate very much that they might not have any choice in the matter which is why I said, I am genuinely sympathetic to their position and I hope we can solve this.
The ‘birthplace’ of the 555 is in downtown Sunnyvale - an easy trip if you’re in the Valley*. It’s in an alley between Murphy Ave. and the parking lot off S. Frances. There’s a realtor’s office opposite the side entrance to Fashion Wok. That’s the place.
It was invented by Hans Camenzind**, who was doing contract work for Signetics in an office he rented there. What a great location for your office, even back then!
There really should be a plaque or something.
* Go there then have dinner at Dishdash, across the street.
( Please note , I posted the archive.org link to the Hans Camenzind site, because when I tried to access the site URl , my BitDefender virus thing popped up a warning about a certificate problem. I Have NO idea if this is a real problem (Im clueless) or not but just to be careful I use the archive.org link )
Cool. I lived on E Evelyn for a few years in the 00's and dined many a night at Gumba's. And Hobee's and Denny's of course. I miss the days of raiding Radio Shack in the nearby mall perennially under construction for piles of :CueCats.
Another eatery of Valley folklore is Buck's of Woodside. Neat place on its own.
Gumbas is still there! Hobee’s near 101 too. Still my favorite diner.
The mall (and ‘downtown’ Denny’s) has finally, after literal decades of construction driven by multiple bankruptcies of the firms doing it, been replaced by walkable mixed use stores, apartments, and a cinema.
To add further insult, it doesn’t tell you that there’s a $11 charge for paying online until after it’s interrogated you for all the details of your renewal.
I hate websites that hide charges until you have spent significant time entering information. There should be a law!
Everyone assumes that they collect and store personal information (to use or sell later), even when the user abandons the process after finding the true cost. There should be another law!
I think you are making assumptions that are not correct. And as a ‘normal person’ surrounded by ‘normal people’ at the last No Kings protest, I very much object to your framing.
There’s a big difference between funding organizing groups like Indivisible (which, yes, foundations linked to Soros do - although I suspect not at the magnitude you’re imagining), and directly paying protestors (which doesn’t happen to any notable degree)
Want to understand this? Go to a local Indivisible or Democratic Party meetup and you will see the normal people with your own eyes. Go to a big protest like ‘No Kings’, or a rally during campaign season and you’ll be surrounded by ‘normal people’.
I’d personally be fine with restrictions on where funding for political organizations comes from (although I’m not sure how you make that compatible with the 1st amendment) - but what you’re saying is ridiculous, and it’s a worrying symptom of our current political climate that people can be so out of touch as to believe it.
>I’d personally be fine with restrictions on where funding for political organizations comes from (although I’m not sure how you make that compatible with the 1st amendment)
Despite what the proponents of Citizen's United might have us believe, money != speech, and adding restrictions to political donations is perfectly compatible with the first amendment.
Would-be donors are allowed to advocate for political positions just the same as anybody else. Nobody is stopping them. That would still be the case with donation limits. They can still get on TV and argue their case.
There is already a precedent for limiting donations. Try donating money to ISIS or Hezbollah and see if the government considers that an exercise of your first amendment rights.
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