I'm just another nerdy, white midwestern man in a very purple area with a very common name. I lived with abuse and neglect for the first 16 years of my life at home. I have gone through my own spiral down to hell from trauma, I've had to deal with BPD, despair, and a tumor in my head. I've been suicidal every day for the majority of the past 4 years. I've had to deal with feelings of whether not society cares if I exist. I've dealt with wanting to be a victim
I don't know what to say that won't sound dismissive or hurtful, but that's Truth sometimes, it comes without judgement, just trying help with a perspective as outsider looking in
What you feel and have experienced sucks and absolutely awful, but your community is not the only ones who experience abuse. I get a sense from the LGBT community that empathy is demanded and not reciprocated, and friends and allies are pushed away. In the case of abortion, there's no mention to what the moral dilemma you're asking people to make, there's no consideration that you're asking someone to choose between you and an unborn baby, no one is really qualified to make that judgement. Some pro-lifers would argue that the defense of a defenseless creature is a higher calling. It goes for everyone, if you want people to care about you, you have to care about them.
From someone that's gone through a lot of work to deal with my own mental health, these reactions seem completely irrational and the misery is partially self imposed. I see a very emotionally immature community in denial. I see a community looking for external validation when it will never come. I see a community that puts their PTSD and mommy and daddy issues out in to the world and it's a bit much to deal with for normal people. I see a community that has had a lot of hardship and doesn't see that it warps their world view, I'm a believer that most people are good people, your community deserves protection as much as any other but it should also do it's part in helping itself
I absolutely hate it but there's not enough nurturing in world to deal with how brutal nature can be sometimes
Everyone has to deal with the fact people are never going to completely understand you, 100% of people aren't going to like you, there's crazy people out there on the wrong drugs that would kill you just for looking at them weird
There's a good chunk of people that support the 2nd amendment because there is no other higher natural right than your right to defend your existence
None of what I’m complaining about is a product of nature, full stop. It is a product of bigots.
I don’t give a shit if people understand me. I don’t understand all kinds of people, not the least are Trump voters. I don’t, by virtue of that fact, want them harmed, want their freedoms limited, or want them subjected to undue misery. And all I really want is that same treatment in return.
You do want people to understand you more because then it's expected that you understand them, that's how we humanize each other and figure out the true issues and solve problems, when we humanize we'll find out we are all just people trying to survive this crazy world and want the best for the people we care about
It's absolutely a product of nature, bullying is nature especially for boys and young men, this is how men compete and organize themselves socially so it will never go away, you can't program this nature out of boys, woman can be just as brutal (slut shaming, etc.) and it's all to put ours selves in a hierarchy, there's always going to be a hierarchy for resources and sex, some people are assholes and will put people down to elevate themselves, and unfortunately the different and mentally weak are the first easy targets for the group, so since it's just nature, it's not personal even though it feels that way and so then you're the one that makes it personal
Go study chimp societies, some of the more brutal things they do, humans still do
This was part of the point I was trying to make, you have to treat people how you want to be treated, if your perception is that all this is just bigotry then your going to get the same response reflected back, people don't like being accused of bigotry without people knowing them, that's bigotry all by itself and people are going to get defensive
Part of the point I was trying to make is that your idea of half way and centrist is actually not for most people you would call a bigot, all the things I mentioned in my previous post are all the barriers of entry for normal/good people to have a dialogue. It's the LGBT community that's made itself unapproachable via their actions and words and it has less to do with sexual preferences
I think the response to Dave Chappelle was a big one for most people, the negative response to him was totally unjustified
The question to the LGBT community is how willing are you to meet in the middle, I think most normal people would agree with:
* Make it illegal for any person under 18 to have any permanent medical procedure or treatment for gender care
* Limit abortions to the 1st or 2nd trimester unless medically necessary
* Agreement grooming or indoctrinating children isn't ok
* Agreement pedophilia isn't ok
* No men in women sports
* Recognition that there's groups in LGBT community that need extra support from society
* Recognition that teenagers need to feel safe to explore their sexual identity
* Focus on family values and children having two parents regardless of gender
These are reasonable compromises for most people, if your community won't self police bad behavior or meet people in the middle, then you'll never have accountability or be trusted in society
> It's absolutely a product of nature, bullying is nature especially for boys and young men, this is how men compete and organize themselves socially
Yes, when we're young and stupid. You're supposed to grow out of that and learn to handle yourself as a reasonable person, and we need to stop making excuses for grown adults acting like children.
> Go study chimp societies, some of the more brutal things they do, humans still do
We're not fucking chimps and we have not been "in nature" in a meaningful way since... 3,000 BC? Ish? Hierarchy is no more natural or immutable than any other part of our society. We made it. We can make it differently.
> This was part of the point I was trying to make, you have to treat people how you want to be treated
See my earlier point about me being hauled in front of a teacher for her to be like "talk out your differences" with my bully. I don't have differences with this dude. He's decided to step on me to elevate his position in society. The fuck would you have me do about this?
> It's the LGBT community that's made itself unapproachable via their actions and words and it has less to do with sexual preferences
Genuinely, with respect, what the hell are you talking about? I wasn't always what I am today, and the LGBT community was nothing but accepting and open when I, still at the time straight and male, went to them being like "hey I'm questioning some shit" and got to know them, even though at the time I was still a young conservative shit-bag.
The only time I see the LGBT folks getting pissy with people is when the aforementioned people start shit because gay folks make them feel icky.
> I think the response to Dave Chappelle was a big one for most people, the negative response to him was totally unjustified
He used the suicide of a supposed trans friend of his to excuse him spouting anti-trans rhetoric in the guise of humor. And what actually happened from all of that, because as far as I know, he's still wildly successful, rich, and getting gigs. Oh the poor baby, had to have some people on twitter be mad at him for a few weeks and literally nothing else! The horror!
> The question to the LGBT community is how willing are you to meet in the middle
Depends what your middle is. If your position is you don't wanna hear about me being gay, cool, wasn't gonna tell you anyway. If your position is I can't be gay in public, can't be gay around children, can't marry my partner, can't make use of social institutions while gay? Then fuck off.
> Make it illegal for any person under 18 to have any permanent medical procedure or treatment for gender care
I would actually say 21 personally.
> Limit abortions to the 1st or 2nd trimester unless medically necessary
The government has no place telling women what they can do with their bodies, and until such time as a fetus can support itself, it is part of the woman's body and therefore her choice.
> Agreement grooming or indoctrinating children isn't ok * Agreement pedophilia isn't ok
Literally nobody disagrees with this, the only reason it's even related is the completely made up bullshit about trans-people reading to kids in the library and that being somehow dangerous, even though we get like, weekly, 2 new abusers outed from one church or another touching kids.
Are there pedos who are trans? Sure. There's a shitload more cis-people though. If clowns abused kids as often as priests did it would be illegal to take kids to a circus.
> No men in women sports
This is a complicated issue that neither you or I is educated well enough to even discuss.
> Recognition that there's groups in LGBT community that need extra support from society * Recognition that teenagers need to feel safe to explore their sexual identity * Focus on family values and children having two parents regardless of gender
No shit? To all of that? The only thing I'd push back lightly on is single parents when they aren't chronically deprived of resources are perfectly capable of raising kids, but that situation is far from the norm.
> These are reasonable compromises for most people
I cannot emphasize to you enough that as an activist in this space, this is not even remotely what "most people" want. Most people want what Trump ran on, which is ratfucking us out of society entirely because we're the boogeymen. And as of this election, with all branches of the fed now under Republican control, they might be able to pull it off! So if we all end up some combination of imprisoned/institutionalized/dead, it would be real cool if y'all could write in this history books when the ills of society are just as present then as they are now, that I guess we got that wrong and it wasn't actually the gays making everything terrible. However, I am skeptical because history shows us when that happens, that's not what follows. Y'all just move on to the next group of people you decide is the REAL problem and do the same shit to them.
Like, I genuinely think you're trying to engage in good faith, but is is clear here that you are not part of my community, because you are coming to this, with respect, like a straight person does. That we're the oddballs, and we need to meet you in the middle in order to be credible or taken seriously or whatever and like, no? No we don't. The gay community has been around for a long, long time. We have lost a lot of people to the ignorance and bigotry expressed by straight society, both intentionally, when we got lynched, and indirectly, with the inaction during the AIDS epidemic of the healthcare system. I'm not interested in playing respectability politics with an opposition that fundamentally demands I cede ground to them in order to earn the right merely to argue my point, let alone have it be genuinely considered.
As far as I'm concerned, especially after this election, we owe you nothing.
Or to put all of that shorter; we're here, we're queer, get used to it.
Nothing wrong with "anti-trans rhetoric" really. The whole concept of "trans" is based on absolutely ludicrous, sexist and homophobic ideas. It needs significant pushback.
When implemented as policy and law, it's awfully harmful, to women and children especially. The "anti-trans rhetoric" will continue until this cult-like set of beliefs is pushed to the fringes of society and is no longer used to inform policy.
Well good luck with that, considering trans and intersex folks have been around... well, as long as everyone else has! But surely this time when you're taking an eliminationist position against a minority of people, history will prove you correct I'm sure, unlike... literally every other time that's happened in human history.
People don't grow up at the same pace, no one is really fully mature, most of us in some area in our lives lack maturity and sometimes severely, it's a process, always, it's immature to not recognize this and have compassion for people, it's immature at some point to put on to the world what it "should" be instead of accepting what it is
> We're not fucking chimps and we have not been "in nature" in a meaningful way since... 3,000 BC? Ish? Hierarchy is no more natural or immutable than any other part of our society. We made it. We can make it differently.
This is not grounded in reality. Tell farmers who birth livestock that they aren't in nature, tell people who are dealing with hurricanes that they aren't contending with nature. Almost everyone's motivations come down survival and sex which doesn't get anymore primal. People will always act like animals to some degree, people will always organize themselves in a hierarchy because it's efficient and it's intrinsic to how people procreate, you're not going to win against millions of years of biology. People will always be afraid or unsure of what they don't understand
There's hierarchy's in values, everyone has to choose which of their values are more important than others, there's a reason murder is considered more heinous of a crime than petty theft, it's all down to value of life over things, but abortion is so much more complicated because it's a life vs life problem but that means both sides are right and compromise is the only option
> See my earlier point about me being hauled in front of a teacher for her to be like "talk out your differences" with my bully. I don't have differences with this dude. He's decided to step on me to elevate his position in society. The fuck would you have me do about this?
In my experience at home, in the moment, stay quiet and take it, get out as soon as possible. After that though when you're out of the environment, to not let it define you, to not let it fill you up with hate and anger, to not become a victim, to not judge entire groups of people, to not let it damage the trust you have in yourself, to be grateful for the opportunity to better understand the world and grow as a person, recognize that experiencing hell allows you to appreciate heaven, to remember there's good in the world
I absolutely recognize that I'm not part of your community but I'm also not in the pro-life community, I'm also not an activist. I recognize I won't understand your life experiences, I'm just tired of everyone shouting and dehumanizing each other, from my perspective the activists on both sides are only defending and attacking the extremes of each other to an irrational level, instead of trying to win over the extreme, you should be trying to win over the moderates with arguments rooted in love, empathy, and wisdom
Your view about abortion is just as rigid as the other side, giving both sides the benefit of the doubt, neither side has moral high ground. Abortion is such a human issue, both sides have equally valid concerns and values, so do you want to win or would you rather get something rather than nothing? The reality is for this issue, neither side is going to be happy with compromise, and dismissing that is disrespectful to the good values of the other side
>> Agreement grooming or indoctrinating children isn't ok * Agreement pedophilia isn't ok
> Literally nobody disagrees with this
100% I do understand this, this is more for the other side to hear, the perception of the bad apples have to be addressed, and being explicit on this shared value would go a long way
And I absolutely agree the other side has to address their bad apples as well, I'm just not in a position to speak for the LGBT community on the specifics but the sentiment would be "The future is now old man" and be more empathetic
The conservatives could learn how to be better at nurture/empathy from your community and your community could learn how to be tougher individuals to contend with nature from them
>> Recognition that there's groups in LGBT community that need extra support from society * Recognition that teenagers need to feel safe to explore their sexual identity * Focus on family values and children having two parents regardless of gender
> No shit? To all of that?
I called this out because I recognize that the other side lacks empathy and it's what I would tell them, it's what I would tell other side who think marriage should only between a man and a women and where they need to compromise, it's more important to have 2 parents
> The only thing I'd push back lightly on is single parents when they aren't chronically deprived of resources are perfectly capable of raising kids, but that situation is far from the norm.
This is not my experience, I was not in a chronically deprived situation and not having a father figure around fucked me up. Children need to see how two people manage conflict and see that there are two views of the world, it helps build their identity
I would agree sometimes a single parent would be better than two toxic people attempting to raise a kid
> That we're the oddballs
I'm 100% ignorant so don't judge, but aren't you? Aren't the majority of people just straight? I'm open to changing my world view on this
The LGBT community is seen as oddballs because based on actions, words, and everything else, it all screams extreme immaturity and mental health issues, your partner chose sterilization because of a law change, I'm sorry but that's literally insane!
> We have lost a lot of people to the ignorance and bigotry expressed by straight society, both intentionally, when we got lynched, and indirectly, with the inaction during the AIDS epidemic of the healthcare system
This is awful and not ok. At least in the mid west, all I can say overtime your community and the racial equality community has gotten the message out, things don't change over night, but I see progress, your message still gets through all the noise of everything, it's not as frequent as I would want but I see good straight men call out people's bigotry, my generation even in the middle of no where was raised on judging people by their character and we take it as disrespectful and personal to be called a bigot
I guess I would caution to think that you're fighting the same enemy, that maybe you've defeated some of your foes and the nature of your opposition has changed
> He used the suicide of a supposed trans friend of his to excuse him spouting anti-trans rhetoric in the guise of humor. And what actually happened from all of that, because as far as I know, he's still wildly successful, rich, and getting gigs. Oh the poor baby, had to have some people on twitter be mad at him for a few weeks and literally nothing else! The horror!
Between the nature/hierarchy thing and this, I'm not your opposition and don't have a ton of skin in the game, don't pay attention that closely, but this is where you lose my political support and I check out of caring because if there's not agreement on this, there never will be on anything
I did not see the same thing as you, I watched his special. I saw a comedian who was using his art to express his sadness over what happened to a friend. He was vilified for it, he did not deserve that. If ever there was going to be a moment for an olive branch, that was it, and your community blew it. Any argument against this just ends up feeling like gas lighting and high lights we aren't living in the same objective reality, and it doesn't help your cause
I am certainly not asking you to cede on the core of your values, meeting in the middle has to at least start with an attempt to not vilify your opposition, to show a base line level of respect as human beings, to not "other" people, account for not only the words of the message but also how its delivered, it doesn't matter how you've been treated in the past, bad behavior doesn't justify bad behavior, don't put the sins of others on me
> People don't grow up at the same pace, no one is really fully mature, most of us in some area in our lives lack maturity and sometimes severely, it's a process, always, it's immature to not recognize this and have compassion for people, it's immature at some point to put on to the world what it "should" be instead of accepting what it is
I mean, sure? Show me a SINGLE prominent conservative who lives those values. The modern right is about REVELING in their immaturity and ignorance. They are PROUD of how little they know, and the people who follow them are emboldened to embrace their id, in every way possible. It's how you have these chuckefucks in Pennsylvania who aren't getting their bonuses this year because their company has to use that money to pre-buy goods from China before Trump's stupid tariffs kick in and skull fuck the economy. They didn't know, that part's fair, but I would bet EVERY DOLLAR I'VE GOT that people tried to fucking explain it to them and they wouldn't hear it.
Like you can only shoot yourself in the foot so many times before I just figure you got something against your toes, and I'm gonna leave the area to avoid the shrapnel.
> People will always act like animals to some degree
Oh sure, no question and I have empathy for that. But there comes a time when, as outlined above, someone is clearly just reveling in their ignorance and reflexive reactions to where it's no longer palatable to continue being around them. I have no issues at all with someone who has never met a gay person in their life who would ask me something like "so how do men fuck each other" cuz like, yeah they probably don't know and that might be weird and offputting? That's fine, everybody has to start from somewhere. But if you take that reflexive disgust and double/triple/quadruple down on it, and decide that because I sometimes fuck men, I'm a target for your misdirected rage? Yeah I'm gonna [ censored for HN ], and I will sleep well that night.
Fear, disgust, or confusion are completely understandable emotional responses. Bigotry is a choice that comes after those.
> Your view about abortion is just as rigid as the other side, giving both sides the benefit of the doubt, neither side has moral high ground.
Mine has a moral high ground because it's consistent with my other values of personal freedom. The agency that conservatives would deprive women of goes directly against their stated beliefs about personal autonomy, except for the fact that far too many don't view women as equal people of course.
> And I absolutely agree the other side has to address their bad apples as well
I mean, it goes further than that. The people they're actually afraid of, the pedophiles, actively seek positions in clergy because it gives them authority over and access to kids! And then these same motherfuckers are out here screaming at transpeople who've DONE NOTHING WRONG.
It just boils my goddamn blood.
> I'm 100% ignorant so don't judge, but aren't you? Aren't the majority of people just straight?
I mean, from a strictly majority/minority perspective, yes, but also gay, intersex, and trans people have been around for fucking ever. We are not the new and exciting threat to society that people say we are, we're just making progress on not being universally hated, so a lot more of us are around. And like, the latest numbers of us are in the mid 7%'s so like, if you have 13 people in a room, statistically, at least one of em is gay? That's a LOT.
> but this is where you lose my political support and I check out of caring because if there's not agreement on this, there never will be on anything
Then I would mostly suggest you watch some of the trans community on YouTube especially talk about what's wrong with it, and then perhaps you'd understand? Because so much of the shit he was saying was profoundly harmful, especially to people who are just getting started on their particular journey, but also for the larger community too.
And like, I'm not pleased about it. I loved Dave Chappelle back in the Comedy Central days, and I think the difference is back then he was joking about things he knew, black culture specifically, and I also get why he stepped away from doing that and have empathy for it. But then, he came back, and joked about things he didn't know, i.e. transpeople, and it doesn't work.
And it's not like you can't joke about being trans, tons of things about being trans are funny as hell, but you really need that experience to tell the good jokes. Like, the same jokes Dave Chappelle delivered about black culture back in the 90's would've felt way, way different coming out of... say, Jeff Foxworthy?
Generally untrue. Most of them have wilfully invaded spaces intended for the sole use of the opposite sex. This disregard of others' boundaries is in itself wrong, especially when it's a male doing so.
Using lawfare to convict a political opponent is a very police state and unamerican thing to do, on top of the police state activities under covid, on top of a government wire tapping a political opponent
It's one of the many grievances of those paying attention in the prosecution of the political class and administrative state
There's a lot of people in the midwest with germanic heritage, I like to think about how it rhymes with the relationship between the "uncivilized" barbarians and rome
It's not about superior intellect, it's about incentive structures
Looking at how the incentive structures are laid out, it's clear there's no incentive to be honest to normal people. They need the advertising dollars to exist, and we are suppose to trust big pharma's enormous advertising budget doesn't impact the business decisions at media companies? That's just big pharma, who else is playing the game?
There's no medical test to diagnose depression, all you can do is observe behavior and talk about it
Seeing bad behavior and lies over and over, decade after decade erodes trust and reveals the kind of people they are, if it was some radical group with no real power there would be less concern, but they have a tremendous amount of money and influence
Fox News is by a huge margin the most popular news outlet. Throw in the New York Post (huge presence on the internet) and the WSJ, and conservative media is the mainstream media at this point.
They also shilled for Trump relentlessly, without pretense. But that's beside the point. The left should accept that they no longer represent the aspirations and priorities of the mainstream or even of ethnic minorities, and the right should stop with the underdog charade. They've swapped sides. Of course, neither side will make that admission anytime soon.
Most right winners are listening to podcasts at this point, I don't think Joe Rogan's incentives are as equally bad when comparing to an industry that manufactured the opium epidemic or ones that constantly lie
I'm not trying to persuade you either way. Those are just the facts as assessed by the courts. If you don't like the facts, again, I don't care.
IMHO people vote for Trump because he normalises the hate and jealousy that they feel themselves for their situation and their powerlessness to change it. How he projects his own narcissism makes him look like a kindred spirit to them, and the fact that over 50% of the voting American public can relate to this is a stunning indictment of US society.
Then why isn't he in jail? Why wasn't he been impeached? Why can't they find something that sticks for the most smeared political figure in modern history? If we are bringing up his questionable legal past, then it's fair to bring up the legal past of the opposing side. The truth is the political class has done so much damage and far worse things than Trump.
That's a whole lot of mind reading and guessing of what 50% of the country thinks, it's not simple, no one is that one dimensional and different groups have different reasons
Gen Z, millenials, boomers, gen x all have slightly different social and economic goals
The fundamental christians are not the same as the homeless bernie bros and classic liberals
In 2020, a Pennsylvania white man illegally voted via mail-in ballot on behalf of two deceased parents.
Also in 2020, a black woman in Memphis voted while ineligible due to a felony conviction without being informed she wasn't allowed, and was convicted and sentenced to 6 years in jail.
As for how this applies to why Trump is not in jail for his convictions, I will leave that as an exercise for the reader.
Sorry you dont get to make up your own definition. He was impeached twice. These decisions cannot be undone or removed or acquitted, he is officially formally and forever impeached. Being impeached means being tried for crimes. He was completely tried, and therefore completely impeached. Only president to get impeached twice. And only three presidents have ever been impeached at all. Super embarassing that he is president again.
"If the House adopts the articles by a simple majority vote, the official has been impeached."
Ok, I stand corrected with the technical definition
But there was an impeachment trial to determine if he should be removed or be allowed to run again, and he was acquitted twice, he was impeached and not convicted
It's more embarrassing for them that they brought up charges that were effectively dropped
Well lets not move the goalposts, no us president has ever been convicted in an impeachment trial.
But that is where trump apologists lose me, first impeachment was over "Abuse of power by "pressuring Ukraine to investigate his political rivals ahead of the 2020 election while withholding a White House meeting and $400 million in U.S. security aid from Kyiv." You dont think this happened?
And the second impeachment was over jan 6 election interference? You dont think he interfered? The senate voted 57-43 to convict (57% voted guilty) and Mitch Mconnell said "There's no question that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day." You think 7 republicans and 50 others voting to convict is embarassing for whom? I also agree it is embarassing but I cannot wrap my head around how we could be embarassed in different ways.
I'm not sure I understand this thought, it's possible producing larger quantities would actually increase the velocity of money which would increase money supply
Velocity of money itself is a funny term in modern economics. Modern monetary theory, or at least the economists that follow it, argue that the velocity of money doesn't mean anything and they basically ignore it.
Arguably, with a fiat currency where they can freely manipulate the money supply, they aren't wrong. That's a problem of fist in my opinion though, there are too many moving pieces and the data can be too easily manipulated to say whatever you want it to say.
In my mind part of the calculus in a high interest rate environments has to include the reduced movement in investments and into more stationary savings, maybe it's accounted for indirectly?
Depends how much deflation there is with wages compared to everything else, there's a scenario that they have an opportunity to start saving
The majority of the expenses for the disadvantaged young are housing, gas, and food. With housing being 4x more expensive than 4 or 5 years it basically puts all the disadvantaged from even buying a house and then puts them at the mercy of the renters market
The republican party is now maga, they are not the same
the maga base has been pretty consistent on being antiwar